Len Downie appeared with Howard Kurtz this morning on CNN (Crooks and Liars has the video). It was the first time I heard anyone mention the exact date Bob Woodward came forward and told Downie about his role in TraitorGate: October 24, 2005 according to Downie.
Now, as Woodward told Time Magazine:
In the final weeks before the grand jury indicted vice presidential aide I. Lewis (”Scooter”) Libby on Oct. 28 for perjury and obstruction of justice, Woodward says he was asked by Downie to help report on the status of the probe.In the course of his reporting, Woodward says, “I learned something more” about the disclosure of Plame’s identity, which prompted him to admit to Downie for the first time that he had been told of Plame’s CIA job by a senior administration official in mid June 2003.
Well of course in Bob’s version of just about anything it’s All About Bob. But what are the odds that this “revelation” didn’t come as the result of Bob’s incredible sleuthing, but in fact was related to what was happening in the news? So I decided to go back to October 24 and take a look at what happened on that day, and I went “oh shit…”
From the NYT:
Cheney Told Aide of C.I.A. Officer, Notes ShowBy DAVID JOHNSTON, RICHARD W. STEVENSON and DOUGLAS JEHL
Published: October 24, 2005
WASHINGTON, Oct. 24 – I. Lewis Libby Jr., Vice President Dick Cheney’s chief of staff, first learned about the C.I.A. officer at the heart of the leak investigation in a conversation with Mr. Cheney weeks before her identity became public in 2003, lawyers involved in the case said Monday.
It was a bombshell that shook everyone, the first indication the public had that there was hard evidence that this whole thing led back to the Vice President.
It appeared online on Sunday night, October 23, for the Monday edition of the NYT. Oh was there some celebrating in blogtopia that night, remember? (NB: Swopa in the comments notes that it appeared Mon. night for Tues. publication, but still in time for Woodward to tak to Downie – jh)
Then on Monday, Woodward says to Downie, “uh, Len, I think we need to talk…”
Big coindicence? Sure doesn’t feel like one. Seems more like Bob suddenly realized Fitzgerald was on the hunt for the Veep, and if it came out that Mr. Big Swinging Journalist had known all along and was ratholing a huge story to protect the administration, he could just kiss his sweet Pulitzers goodbye. Sure Bob is willing to keep a secret for 30 years when it accrues to his benefit, but to risk this kind of professional humiliation and be scooped by some scrappy Irish prosecutor? Not bloody likely.
The Times article was the first to reveal that Cheney told Libby on June 12, 2003 that Joe Wilson’s wife worked at the CIA. It was during this time that Woodward was doing interviews for Plan of Attack (which I finally realized I was going to have to read, so I bought it on Amazon last night for 35 cents, and I figure that’s just about right). Woodward has said that the topic came up in “casual” conversation, and “he did not believe the information to be classified or sensitive.”
If Bob wants to claim that somebody mentioned this to him “casually,” that’s fine. I’m sure Bob believes this. All this says to me is that Bob got played like a two dollar banjo.
One does not mention something like this to the biggest investigative journalist in the world “casually,” especially in the midst of a concerted effort. The notion that this was all just “idle chatter” is absurd. There was a coordinated, tag-team effort in place to make sure that everyone who got a leak also got a confirming source. Matt Cooper heard it from Rove one day and Libby confirmed it the next. Rove’s email to Hadley indicates that Hadley may have been some sort of point man for the “plot against Wilson” (Judge Tatel’s words, not mine).
What other evidence points to Cheney? Well as I mentioned yesterday, the Washington Post has said that Woodward’s source has indeed testified in the investigation, but Adam Entous of Reuters says that “Mr. X” has not appeared before the grand jury.
If both facts are true, then anyone known to have appeared before the grand jury is “off” the suspect list.
The only two people who are known to have testified in the case, but not before the grand jury, are Richard B. Cheney and George W. Bush.
There are, of course, other possibilities. And right now the two other prime suspects are Stephen Hadley and Richard Armitage.
Up until the summer of 2004 people who testifying before they grand jury were often brought up in some secret back elevator to avoid press scrutiny, and I suppose that’s how they wheeled in Novak’s coffin undetected. But around that time Judge Hogan ruled that everyone who appeared before the gj had to walk in the front door (and wouldn’t I love to to know the series of events leading up to that). Anyway, from that point on it pretty much guaranteed that if someone was having an official Fitz gj interlude, the press knew about it.
Rove’s memo to Hadley about his conversation with Matt Cooper didn’t materialize until early in 2005. The NYT indicates that Hadley is “known to have been interviewed by investigators,” but nothing more. If he was questioned about the Rove email, it’s hard to imagine he appeared before the grand jury in the process — at this point it would be like trying to sneak in to Fort Knox and hoping nobody noticed.
Then there’s Richard Armitage, whom Michael Isikoff helpfully points the finger at in Newsweek this morning. Armitage is certainly reputed to be someone that Woodward spoke to extensively in the past, and he was part of the chain of events that led to putting the INR memo (which contained info on Valerie Wilson as part of a discussion of the Niger uranium claims) into Colin Powell’s hands.
But in June of 2003, Armitage and Powell were traveling when the document was prepared at the direction of Carl Ford, head of INR. Marc Grossman was Undersecretary of State and in charge of the department while Powell and Armitage were gone, and it was Grossman who finally told Libby that Wilson’s wife worked at the CIA on June 11 or 12 according to the indictment.
By one account in an LA Times article by Tom Hamburger and Sonni Efron, Armitage called Ford after the June 12 Walter Pincus story in the WaPo made reference to Niger Uranium and wanted to know what was up, so Ford forwarded him a copy of the INR memo.
But by other accounts, Armitage doesn’t enter the picture until after Wilson’s op-ed piece in the NYT on July 6, 2003. He thereafter called Ford and requested that Colin Powell be provided with information about Wilson, thus the INR memo was faxed to the White House for delivery to Powell on Air Force One. Due to the fact that Armitage is unfortunately out of the country and just about the only one of the major players not to have issued a denial, coupled with the fact that he is a Powell loyalist and not known to have been questioned by anyone up to this point, it has made him the right wing suspect of choice.
This isn’t like Watergate, in that Bob Woodward doesn’t have the loyalty and/or trust for Len Downie he felt toward Ben Bradlee, in whom he confided the identity of Deep Throat. It also isn’t like the Judy Miller affair, because the NYT decided that the release her source gave allowing her to testify also allowed them to print his name, which they did.
The Post has decided their loyalty is to keeping Bob Woodward’s personal secret, and Bob Woodward has decided his loyalty sure ain’t to the Post. Regardless, too many people are on the hunt for the identity of “Mr. X.,” and since Libby’s lawyers have loudly announced that this will play a big part in his defense we will probably all know his secret a whole lot sooner than 30 years.
Personally, I’ve got a side bet on Big Time in the pantry with the candlestick. But as the curtain rises inch by inch on the dirty little drama being played out in the BushCo. drawing room, one thing’s for certain — nobody is “wrapping up” anything anytime soon.
(graphic by Monk at Inflatable Dartboard)
Related posts:






Spotlight







Support this site!
Subscribe to the newsletter
Advertise on Firedoglake
Send
us your tips
Make us your homepage
About Firedoglake
Advanced search

Worldnetdaily reveals who Mr X is in this story now at their website.
http://worldnetdaily.com/news/…..E_ID=47523
I guess that is what they are hinting at anyway. I didn’t get it when I saw it, only when I read your post and saw that X again.
Forgive me if someone has mentioned this but this seems like good movie making.
Imagine Fritz questioning Big Time on the Stand. Just like Tom Cruise and Jack Nickolson in a Few Good Men.
Big Time wants to let everyone know he has the power to destroy peoples careers and lives and that he thinks he is above the law. So, can you imagine that scene with him answering the question from Fitz, “did you leak Valerie Plame’s name to Boobie.” Answer: “Your goddamn right I did!”
That would be epic.
Sam – http://waynemadsenreport.com/ — cautionary note, of course, before wandering in there. Madsen’s writing (and entire site) comes across as that of a messy mind, could be intentional, hard to say. See his 11-NOV post on BJ. Needs hard data; might be counter-psyops generated by pissed -off intel, but worth keeping in mind when considering motivations.
Which brings me back to this quetion: what would be adequate motivation to damage covert non-proliferation resources? What would push the cabal at the risk of enormous political downside?
A “salting” operation? Or the implication of other older misdeeds by US via Carlysle & Bush cabal that have been buried and are now at risk of disclosure? So many options…
RE:Plan of Attack — Check out Saddams offer to peacefully leave Iraq if he can keep his money, sent to Bush by Hosne Mubarek. It’s in the book. Bush declines the offer.
Would Tenant tell all he knows to Fitz? And would he leak to reporters who want to get the story out?
what would be the more important oath?
an oath before the grand jury or a blanket oath if secrecy in service of the cia to the country?
but he did sell his soul…if he wanted redemption he would have done what clark did, he wouldn’t have gone along, he would have put the ;oyalty to his country ahead of the loyalty to his president
Sam,
My intuition is that Tenant resigned because he wouldn’t go any further down the road with Bush. He knew he had to get out or lose all sense of personal integrity forever.
There was something in his speech about how he really WAS doing it for his family, and his fondness for his children, that made me think, yeah – I bet he feels that having the courage of his convictions is the most important gift he can give to his family. He wouldn’t sell his soul, because of THEM.
When I wrote about Mark Felt (Deep Throat) speaking up, I was refering to the Watergate era.
He was angry with Nixon, but he also felt (no pun intended) that Nixon was abusing his power.
The result of his talking to Woodward was that the criminal conspiracy behind Watergate and it’s cover-up were exposed.
Woodward is now in the ironic position of protecting members of the Bush Administration, who engaged in a criminal conspiracy to cover up the outing of a CIA agent.
Cheney & Co were attempting to punish a whistleblower and by doing so, discourage others who might be thinking of talking out of school.
Discouraging other would be whistle blowers is somethingthat’s often over looked in this. That’s the reason the form of revenge was so public. So it would have a chilling effect.
sam,
i suspect that Tenet resigned because he knows what intelligence was given to the WH and what was cherry-picked.
and Tenet has been silent about everything since he resigned. of course, he received a Medal of Freedom.
now Tenet’s book would be a must read — he probably knows where all the intelligence are buried.
Porter Goss was put into his position as CIA head with the intention that he could control the various mavericks and/or patriots within the CIA. It just didn’t happen. Goss is lucky to still be alive. He knows that, and treads as lightly as possible.
IMO, George Tenet was too much of a suck-up to both Clinton and Bush. He became Director of the CIA on July 11, 1997, with his last day being July 11, 2004. He was eager to please the two presidents, Clinton and Bush, and as such did some stuff he should not have.
Mark Felt revealed that he was Deep Throat not for any noble reason. He revealed that he was Woodward’s source for money. He is about 90-92 and needed the money to provide for his care.
bush’s jaw;
any thoughts on how come Tenet resigned?
the prison camps were set up more than 4 years ago, well before Goss’ tenure.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..01644.html
Brewster Jennings was the name of the president of the former Socony-Vacuum oil company, a predecessor of Exxon Mobil Corp.
But the Jennings family denies any connection, said a grandson, Brewster Jennings, a real estate investor in Durango, Colo. He said that since the firm was named as a CIA front he’s heard from many friends and family members who “find tremendous humor in all this.”
SNIP
You guys are not going to believe this………that name Socony-Vacuum Oil sounded so familiar….my grandfather worked for the Socony-Vacuum Oil Company! I am sitting here looking at this old picture of him pumping gas prior to World War 2 for this company. I am freaking out right now!!
He is no longer alive. He was in the war and his ship sunk and he was lost at sea. I told this story somewhere here not too long ago. It was a discussion about someone here visiting a Normandy Cemetery…….my Mom never knew he had a memorial cross in a little cemetery in Italy until about a year ago. Someday I’ll take her there!!
http://64.233.187.104/search?q…..#038;hl=en
Anastasia: Jakes asleep now and in the am
we will do some sleuthing on this with him.
A guess-maybe Tenet buckled under the ‘
pressure of the Cabal to go along. Jake likes
to hang out those who’ve been compromised.
Studies show dogs help heart patients.
Tenet lost his heart over torture as you suggested.
Sam,
Would Tenant tell all he knows to Fitz? And would he leak to reporters who want to get the story out?
Wonder what Goss knows.
Why does Jake miss Tenant?
Everybody is overlooking one thing. Woodward said that this is no big deal, and will turn out to be less dramatic than advertised when it all comes out. Armitage is a long time Woodward source. I think it’s going to be him and this is going to throw sand in the eyes of the American people in viewing the Bush admin. as seriously corrupt. I really hope I’m wrong. I’ve got a bottle of pink champagne in the fridge with Big Time’s fishhook grimace photograph stuck over the label that’s still left over from Fitzmas, and I hope I get to open it soon. But let’s not get ahead of ourselves here. I just don’t think that Woodward would have come out with such bs in interviews if he knew Cheney was involved in this, knowing that it would destroy his reputation. I really think this is going to be a let-down. The best we can hope for is that Father Fitzmas gets more information he can use to tighten the screws elsewhere,
Was the CIA director interviews by Fitzgerald?
Would we know? So far no one posted back
on this question.
Thesaurus Rex — Even as the editors are forced to defend their shillish star reporters, they’re putting pressure on the newsroom people who cover this story on a day-in, day-out basis to do so in a way that generates BIG headlines. It may seem odd, but often conflicting motivations can be at odds within theh same organism.
zenurse Thanks for the thought. No stuff like that doesn’t upset me.
I wouldn’t want anyone to avoid saying anything here.
I don’t access any graphic pictures or articles, though.
But I think they should seen by more
people. Especially chickenhawks.
new thread
Went to the barn and gave Jake some biscuits.
He told me Goss is an important figure. May Fritz should have him under Oath if he hasn’t.
Jake misses Tenet and wonders what he
really knows. He growls when I say Goss.
Wonder why? Maybe he smells Cheney’s
scent in all this. Cheney did go to the CIA
often and left his presence there.
The NYT and the WaPo are locked in a steel cage death match to own this story.
Given both papers’ lack of editorial policing on this issue and the questionable ethical decisions of Judy and Booby on the matter, I would have to say that fighting to own this story is kind of like fighting about who farted. By letting Mr and Miss Run Amok play games with their papers’ reputations and flout any kind of journalistic objectivity, they have become part of what makes the story such a circus.
That’s not good journalism, and I think in the final analysis, both organizations will come away from this with heavy damage to their credibility, or at least a sharp decline in reader credulity.
some secret back elevator to avoid press scrutiny, and I suppose that’s how they wheeled in Novak’s coffin undetected.
you’re killing me … as usual
Rayne – thanks for the Madsen clarification – he always confuses me!
and Mack – will do
Just listening to Rumsfeld on the radio – replay of audio from one of the sunday shows – can’t Fitz nail him too … please!
Counting stars at the CIA:
http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.cia.gov/cia/information/tour/star_created.html
Well, I suspect this is imprecision, but if it is not, this is a major bombshell from TIME:
After their meeting last week, he had only praise for Fitzgerald, to whom Woodward turned over his calendar from that period and an 18-page list of questions for his book that he had shared with Libby, in which all the queries were blacked out except two related to Plame.
Among other reasons for thinking this is not a bombshell is the fact that in his published statement Woodward suggests — though he does not come right and out and say — that the 18-page list of questions did not contain anything on Plame or the Wilsons specifically, though it did contain something on yellowcake. My suspicion is that this is what TIME is talking about, with a very loose understanding of what counts as something being related to Plame.
Qualar,
Re: Goss will never gain control of the Agency because in their eyes he’s a traitor.
That’s why Bush (or should I say Cheney) put him in there. He wanted someone who would be his own creature and not the agency’s.
And since Bush 41 was once head of the CIA, it makes for some Oedipal saga.
Thanks Sam!
You know the saying:
If you’re not paranoid, it’s because you don’t know what’s really going on.
Porter Goss’s CIA is running the torture camps. The true patriots in the Agency will eat his lunch with the help of former agents who were purged by Goss. Goss will never gain control of the Agency because in their eyes he’s a traitor.
Anastasia: I might have to lend you my dog
Jake. You are a great sleuth.
30 min. in the Hermitage, and he was bored.
“Where are the pet goats, Laura?”
Someone thought tossing a Medal of Honor might appease the CIA too.
I’ll swear. These guys boast of being brilliant (Cheney and Rove), but they are incredibly short sighted.
Hi friends-
In the course of my day as a zenhospicenurse, I got to thinking about the military folk who are returning to vet hospitals for care and dying in these places; I became overwhelmed with sadness at the thought that some of these folks are facing their end of life process surrounded by a bunch of pro-war military types. I became deeply concerned about the quality of the care they receive and what kind of attitude the military has about peaceful death without pain. I don’t know too much about military nursing or medical care, other than a local guy in the Guard who keeps telling me I should enlist to go back to school for my Master’s, something I wouldn’t consider. There is a huge difference between caring for people who are going to improve and people who are going to die. Hospice and palliative care is a nursing specialty and patients get so much more with Hospice care than from staff who really want to see improvement and may not be comfortable talking about death with patients and esp family, wives children parents. It really should be done by those who are trained and have the need and desire to make the committment to bear witness to the entire process.
Do any of our FDL vets have experience with this aspect of Veteran care? Does Military Health insurance provide for Hospice care? I will look into it, but would love to know from you guys.
Colleen Military mom, I hope this subject doesn’t upset you, I am making a huge assumption that as you think about your beautiful son, you also have love for all our troops. From reading your posts, I don’t think I’m far off.
As always, the posts and ongoing discussion this weekend have been brilliant. I came home from work last night and literally fell asleep with my computer on in my lap, having done no computer work for my job before I had to look in to see the newest of the news, then
ZZZZzzzzzzzzzzz
Thanks to all, and to our fabulous hostesses. (And baby Hedd who is our mascot)
Another coordination issue is the setup of the media echo chamber. They liked to have a story printed on Sunday with their talking points so that their pundits can use the story to back themselves up.
So, for the Plame leak they might leak first to a select group (6) of print journalists and then leak to a prize set of pundits. Cooper was a ‘happy’ accident.
Rove was going on vacation for the week Novakula’s article was going to appear. He needed Adam Levine to setup the pundits for the TV portion of the echo chamber.
Did Rove give up something about the TV pundits the week Libby was indicted? Fitz spoke to Levine afterwards because of something Rove said.
Does anyone know when the torture rooms started? the reason I ask is that, I never believed that Tenant left to spend more time with his family, no matter how fond he is ‘em.
My take on Tenant is that the media misportrayed him as being responsible for bad intel on Iraq, but that the story is more complicated than that.
Remember the tales of Cheney going to the CIA and complaining because their intel wasn’t sexy enough?
It could be that Tenant quit rather than do torture rooms and Goss, his replacement, is the one who carried Cheney’s wish out.
read about Great Leader:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..01257.html
….30 minutes in the Hermitage. wow.
Btw, I think Madsen claims he is an ex-company man. Faulty memory though. Anyone else read that?
I’ve long thought this was a CIA war. The particulars we muddle in are fascinating, but Congress smells Company blood and has all that wunnerful poop on the whole sorry lot.
Goss is a casualty that will be rectified.
Rayne: great post. This could be the main motive why Cheney blew up B.J.? and yet they destroyed the work of the CIA in tracking dual-use technology that could be bought on the black market by terrorists. Need I say more.
Where was this written by Madsen?
QUALAR’s post reminds me of what Me was saying here in the weeks just prior to 10/28.
Don’t fuck with the Company
Anybody who’s studied/dealt with the CIA is well familiar with what they’re capable of.
They have a long history of lurking in the shadows, observing and listening, analysing and connecting dots…and conveniently collecting data that backs up everything. They have even longer memories.
They know things about people that the people themselves don’t know.
They remind me of the old-school Dems here in Texas, who could stop your political aspirations cold because they knew how your mama really died, and why. Things like that.
Never fuck with the spooks.
Sam
Re: Porter Goss. Ahhh! Yes!
Except he could only be involved in cover-up not in the initial conspiracy as according to the CIA website:
Porter J. Goss became Director of the Central Intelligence Agency on 21 April 2005. He served as the 19th Director of Central Intelligence from 24 September 2004 until 21 April 2005.
But I bet he’s busy trying to figure our whoever’s aiding Fitz on the investigation.
siun — Madsen’s article suggests an attempt to ship VX or some other WMD BACK INTO Iraq for “planting”, that non-proliferation research found it before it made it across the border to be used as the casus belli.
marky — what a coinky-dink, but Mongolia’s economy depends on its oil and coal reserves. Another coinky-dink: China’s demand for the same is growing at a rate exceeding new finds and capacity increases globally. Imagine that…
siun
email davidmack.at.gmail sometime
As another aside about Woody. Remember
how he came out of his testimony with
the utmost respect for Fitzgerald.
Just more weaving on my theme. Maybe Fitz had to remind Woodward about the damage to
our national security this caused.
This guy Peter Goss is Cheney’s eyes and ears
over there. How come he was put in there.?
To keep the lid on B.J expoaue so we
will never know the possible high crime and
treason committed.?
I find it just incredible to contemplate some
in the CIA going after the Cheney Cabal.
Sure would’nt want to be the investigative
reporter on that though.
Do we know if Fritzgerald has interviewed
Peter Goss?
the only hero is Fitz
Mack – city here as well, proud new emigrants to Hyde Park after too many years in rural NH! I have visions of a Fitz Welcome Home party after he nails these crooks but meanwhile, we should consider at least an FDL cocktail hour, eh? (I’m irritated at Ikea these days but still have an apt full of the stuff – and need more!)
Need to sleep soon but looked at the Senate report by Riegle – when looking into reasons for soldiers getting gulf war syndrome, a lot of info was researched on chemical and bio weapons and Iraq. An unclassified version of the report shows up with the following info on bio weapons exported to Iraq – what a list:
http://www.gulfweb.org/bigdoc/…..ml#exports but the Carlyle connection is not made (corporate source is anonymous in this version) but Carlyle is a likely player I would think. Worth looking into more – and will when more awake.
QUALAR,
this is the same CIA that is running secret torture camps.
LJ
why – by golly , that worked
t’anks
No problem. Alas, I’m a long-time veteran of Haloscan quirks.
Will someone please check out the government’s response for denial of protective order filed after Fitzgerald’s Affidavit (Nov 18, 2005)?
http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/iln/…..er_obj.pdf
Wonder if this is the same QUALAR as on:
http://thinkprogress.org/2005/…..k-scandal/
QUALAR’s post reminds me of what Me was saying here in the weeks just prior to 10/28.
Don’t fuck with the Company
.
I’m still wondering why Rove got an eleventh hour pass from Fitz and if the information from Mr.X had any part in Fitz’s decision.
It is looking more and more like Big Time in the White House with the telephone.
That the CIA may be the “steering committee” on seeking justice for this traitorous act makes me root for the CIA for the first time in my life.
possibility of a saturday night massacre?
Woodward looks real bad. He was downplaying
the signifcance of the destruction of
Brewster-Jennings and what all that meant.
If it ever comes out that he knew what BJ
was doing and he protected the top dogs
Cheney and Bush by sitting on it for two years, then he iobstructed justice in a case of high crimes and treason. I doubt Fitzgerald would
get into this angle of Plamegate as it involves
top secret intelligence. But I bet it sure
motivates this “junk yard dog” to go for the
jugular when the time is right.
Isn’t the US about to build bases in Mongolia? A friend of mine who is very keen on military news said the US is building bases in countries all around China.
QUALOR”
We’re witnessing a civil war between the Bush Administration and the CIA.
—–
that’s been my theory too….the Yankee – Cowboy War, cont.
max
we can hope can’t we
i am still astounded at 2004
in retrospect less so,
but it just seemed so obvious at the time that we were headed in the wrong direction
i seriously fault the dems for losing to bush twice and find it difficult to trust them not to blow it again
tiem will tell
I love you guys!
siun –
chicagoland indeed
a fdl renevouz might be fun
i am more inclined towards things
in the city, tho i might have to get to ikea sometime – nice blue store
^_^
Valley Girl –
It’s true Mark Felt was out for blood. But he gave information that helped expose wrong doing by Nixon & Co.
Woodward is protecting someone who wanted to retaliate against a whistle blower, and discourage others who might be thinking of doing the same thing.
QUALAR — where exactly did you see that about the NYT/CIA/Isikoff thing?
On Cheney, executive priviledge, possible GJ appearance –
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t think Cheney will ever have the opportunity to claim executive privledge or will ever step in front of the GJ.
As has been noted often about Fitz and this investigation, this seems much like Mafia cases – Cheney’s the Don and is Fitz’s endgame. Fitz knows what happened and how it was organized, but now he’s biding his time talking to (and pressing, and indicting) everyone else first, all the underlings, making his way up the ladder until he has overwhelming testimony and evidence to indict Cheney and any other ringleaders.
In the end, I say 2 years from now, so many people will have dug in their knives in his back to save their own ass from jail that nothing Cheney could say or refuse to say in front of a GJ would mean anything.
The need for him to come in to say anything would be unnecessary – unless he wants to take the Prez down with him.
We just have to be patient and realize that the one person who knows all the little details about who’s secretly made a deal, who’s talked, and where this investigation is going is Fitz. I’m confident that his investigation is mostly over as he says, and that he’s just playing his cards so the big guys have no room to wiggle when the ax comes down.
every oncce in a while I take a break and consider who is in charge of our country and it’s weaponry.
we laughed at dr. strangelove not only because it was funny but it was in a movie theater.
but these guys are for real. scary scary scary shit.
look at the picture from the last thread. can you imagine what 1 billion chinese must think of this buffoon. he can’t ride a segway, and we let him play with white phosphorus. nurse, get him outta here.
QUALAR
Excellent post. I think you’re right about the CIA. They got this investigation going and they want to keep it going.
As it turns out, making mortal enemies of the CIA wasn’t such a wise career move for Cheney and his friends.
LJ
why – by golly , that worked
t’anks
to repeat a common theme – there are so many intelligent, witty, articulate people here…
caring and helpful too
and that’s just the commenters
jane and redd take those qualities to another level
mack
if the resignations of Chimpy and Big Time come after Nov 2006 and the Dems have won the House and they have launched a comprehensive and very public investigation, we get Prez Pelosi.
Thats one of the reasons why Nov 2006 is sooooo important!
I hope the Dems can get a unified set of talking points and a domestic political strategy on Iraq that is front and center with tide of public opinion. I am very cyncial they will be able to accomplish that. They blew it on Iraq in 2002 and 2004. Can they get right for 2006?
mack | 11.20.05 – 8:38 pm
My current Haloscan hypothesis is that hitting F5 repeats the previous mouse action.
Mark Felt probably had his own agenda to some extent, because of being passed over as Hoover’s replacement as head of the FBI. Never mind. I thank him anyway.
-
Marcos – I too remember it as Outer Mongolia – back when maps were maps and could keep track of all the countries (so much easier with one USSR for example!)
and Mack – are you in Chicagoland? I think I’ve passed that Mongolian bbq myself, on my way to Ikea or something. Maybe we should have an FDL Fitz party of Mongolian BBQ on the 3rd coast?
OK – important (to me) question – Raynes mentioned VX and Madsen – what’s the big deal with Madsen’s new story – the VX shipments were well documented and the sale by Reagan and Bush1 crew of chemical weapons, etc to Iraq is not news – see http://www.commondreams.org/he…..08-08.htm. I’m looking now for the Senate Report mentioned in this section of the article:
[blockquote]The Senate committee’s reports on ‘US Chemical and Biological Warfare-Related Dual-Use Exports to Iraq’, undertaken in 1992 in the wake of the Gulf war, give the date and destination of all US exports. The reports show, for example, that on May 2, 1986, two batches of bacillus anthracis — the micro-organism that causes anthrax — were shipped to the Iraqi Ministry of Higher Education, along with two batches of the bacterium clostridium botulinum, the agent that causes deadly botulism poisoning.
One batch each of salmonella and E coli were shipped to the Iraqi State Company for Drug Industries on August 31, 1987. Other shipments went from the US to the Iraq Atomic Energy Commission on July 11, 1988; the Department of Biology at the University of Basrah in November 1989; the Department of Microbiology at Baghdad University in June 1985; the Ministry of Health in April 1985 and Officers’ City, a military complex in Baghdad, in March and April 1986.
The shipments to Iraq went on even after Saddam Hussein ordered the gassing of the Kurdish town of Halabja, in which at least 5000 men, women and children died. The atrocity, which shocked the world, took place in March 1988, but a month later the components and materials of weapons of mass destruction were continuing to arrive in Baghdad from the US.
The Senate report also makes clear that: ‘The United States provided the government of Iraq with ‘dual use’ licensed materials which assisted in the development of Iraqi chemical, biological and missile-system programs.’
This assistance, according to the report, included ‘chemical warfare-agent precursors, chemical warfare-agent production facility plans and technical drawings, chemical warfare filling equipment, biological warfare-related materials, missile fabrication equipment and missile system guidance equipment’.
Donald Riegle, then chairman of the committee, said: ‘UN inspectors had identified many United States manufactured items that had been exported from the United States to Iraq under licenses issued by the Department of Commerce, and [established] that these items were used to further Iraq’s chemical and nuclear weapons development and its missile delivery system development programs.’
Riegle added that, between January 1985 and August 1990, the ‘executive branch of our government approved 771 different export licenses for sale of dual-use technology to Iraq. I think that is a devastating record’.
It is thought the information contained in the Senate committee reports is likely to make up much of the ‘evidence of proof’ that Bush and Blair will reveal in the coming days to justify the US and Britain going to war with Iraq. It is unlikely, however, that the two leaders will admit it was the Western powers that armed Saddam with these weapons of mass destruction.[/blockquote]
I know this is not directly germane to the
current thread but it is the invisible rail
in this Plamegate investigation.
As an aside: we may never know the scope of
Brewster-Jennings work in the area of dual-
use technology relating to nuclear proliferation. In a previous post in the Haloscan swamp it was suggested perhaps
with black market transactions in the rim of
central asia. It also has been reported that
after Plame’s outing many agents were killed,
and their work completely gutted. I really
don’t believe that the Executive branch would
of entered into this conspiracy just to cover
up the origins of the war. Serious yes but
lets look at Halliburton and Aramco—could
Plame have got too close to dual use technology being bought from Aramco (Saudi
Arabia) Saudi Arabia is the 4 track of American
Foreign policy-has been for a long time.
It is bad enough that the intelligence was
fabricated—did Cheney and Bush believe they
could kill two birds with one shot–outing
Plame and cover it up. Fitz is pursuing this
to the end because our National Security was
put into jeopardy by this Cabal. Maybe high treason if Brewster-Jennings can come to light.
We may never know unless there’s a Deep
Throat 3 in the Government who knows.
Plame knew what was going on with BJ.
What a brave woman. She should get the
Medal of Freedom rather than Tenet.
Unfortunately, for some reason after you publish a post you have to close haloscan and reopen it, otherwise you’ll repost every time you refresh.
You can also hit PUBLISH when the comment box is empty to refresh without posting anything.
Pretty close to a clickable refresh after posting.
erm
in windows/ie6 hitting f5 causes a repost for me
clicking on the Comments link from fdl refreshes the page ok, as does rightclick->refresh
cool haloscan enhancement would be some sort of clickable refresh
interestingly enough the mark felt revelation mad me think woodward was a mere tool
and though nixon needed bringing down, the mark felt as a great patriot strikes me less likely than mark felt as an instrument for removing an unstable finger on the button
emmm – how long does it take for history to repeat?
Two theories, not the least thought out, each with a less than 1% chance (which includes 0%):
1) Armitage told Woodward about the WHIG conspiracy, but believed at the time Plame’s status would be converted by the time of the public revelation.
2) Somebody told Woodward that they had heard about Plame from Pincus or someone at a date before that reporter could have known.
I cannot read the post because I cannot stop laughing at the “Cat out of the Bag”
I’m having the same problem. This post is probably very important. However, I cannot read it. I keep thinking about that cute lil’ kitten poster with the line “everytime you masterbate,
God kills a kitten.”
Sorry. I’ll read that post now.
fred | 11.20.05 – 8:18 pm
Interesting that you should mention Porter Goss. My gut is that he is involved in this extravaganza, being as he’s Cheney’s suck-up.
-
Unfortunately, for some reason after you publish a post you have to close haloscan and reopen it, otherwise you’ll repost every time you refresh. We all have to do this.
percy | 11.20.05 – 8:30 pm | #
got it.
sorry.
just a quick post to thank Jane and Reddhead for all the hard work – and the opp to chat with some really great people. I don;t know any of you nor have any connections and yet you have made me welcome.
My very best to you all.
Neither am I. I google very new acronym I don’t “get” (including coffee through nose.) Learning fast.
After Woodward advised Downie of his involvment, I believe Woodward, his source, and Downie were going to take their chances with Fitzgerald without disclosing Woodward’s involvement to the public. Then came a question to Woodward from Isikoff on Larry King Live about a bombshell Woodward was going to drop. Actually, the heads-up to Isikoff and others came from two New York Times reporters who were advised by two anonymous CIA agents that Woodward was about to divulge something big. Message received. No way to keep this out of the media if the CIA wanted it in the open. Might as well ‘fess up.
We’re witnessing a civil war between the Bush Administration and the CIA. Granted, Fitzgerald may be the lead prosecutor, but the CIA has taken the liberty of becoming his steering committee. The CIA has a vested interest in traitorgate and will do everything necessary to restore the honor and integrity that the Bushits have sapped.
My money is on the CIA.
percy | 11.20.05 – 8:28 pm
Tks. Nt yt up w/ all the lingo!
-
“The only two people who are known to have testified in the case, but not before the grand jury, are Richard B. Cheney and George W. Bush.”
ACtually, Tim Russert never appeared before the GJ, but he did testify.
Not sure of the significance of that, but I thought I’d offer the correction.
I think Woodward is a bit slow on the uptake.
Wasn’t there a line in ATPM that folks at the ca. 1972 Post were so dismayed with Woodward’s writing that they joked about English being his second language?
I’d imagine that’s a pretty insulting indictment of a person’s writing/intellect in a newsroom.
On a different tangent…
Didn’t Woodward get a swelled head for a week from some editor who called him, “Ace,” only to learn that this guy used the term for every new kid in the house?
How… Woodwardian.
egregious – We’re used to multiple postings, but this is getting… egregious.
Unfortunately, for some reason after you publish a post you have to close haloscan and reopen it, otherwise you’ll repost every time you refresh. We all have to do this.
Seeing his chance to take down yet another White House and since Fitz is going to do it sooner or later anyway, he drops a nickel on Big. And as a token of his love and respect for the WH, he promises Big that he won’t out him as Mr. X until he absolutely HAS to… or until someone else does.
ac — that does make sense.
bbqueen | 11.20.05 – 8:18 pm
COL! (chuckling out loud)
C|N>K: n. [Usenet] Coffee through Nose to Keyboard; that is, “I laughed so hard
I snarfed my coffee onto my keyboard.”.
eek
apologies for the
multiple postings.
mack | 11.20.05 – 8:18 pm
c|n>k
Sorry, I gotta ask what that meant. Pls?
-
bbqueen –
Yeah, I get your drift. I think Woodward is a bit slow on the uptake. See Joan Didion’s article.
It might be that whoever Mr.X is, he pulled the wool over Wayward Bob’s eyes. I don’t think Bob is is a Cheney type, but naive and self serving.
When Vanity Fair scooped the Post with the Mark Felt story, Wa Po wanted Woodward to write a story immediately.
Woodward demured because he wanted to save it for a book. The Post (rightly) insisted and he wrote a piece. I think Wayward Bob’s head has gotten to be about the size of the Capitol dome.
Don’t have time to catch up here, but I did read far enough to see your suggestion that every city look to provide for animals victims, ccmask.
A girlfriend just raised more than $130, 000 on her own toward a new large shelter for cats in my city. With other donations, they have enough to buy the land and refurhish existing warehouse space.
She’s a Republican cat lover. I forgive her for the first part because she’s the second part too and doesn’t hesitate to help people and animals out.
I imagine there’s a lot of that going on in cities and towns who took on animals from Katrina. Hopefully, it will catch on other places before the need arises again.
Another great one, Jane. Hard to find another blog that clarifies so much of the tripe. You lovely ladies are to be commended … over and over!
valley girl
c|n>k
Why Bob and how did he come by his access? Not because of Watergate fame which was a right place/right time serendipity although it did allow him to easily climb the WaPo ladder.
From Wikipedia: Woodward was born in Geneva, Illinois, the son of Alfred E. Woodward, a judge. He attended Yale University on a Navy Reserve Officer Training Corps scholarship, joining Book and Snake and graduating in 1965.
One of the oldest and most prestigious secret societies at Yale University, Book and Snake is known as a much more progressive and laid back society than most of its counterparts… Notable members include… current CIA Director Porter J. Goss.
So Bobby is well enough versed in Skull & Bones speak to earn him Bush’s lap.
re: dead people testifying and voting:
the president, the pope and mayor daley in a life raft. raft is sinking, 2 must leave the raft;
prez; i’m the leader of the free world, i should stay.
pope; i’m the spiritual leader, i should stay;
mayor daley: let’s be democratic and take a vote;
vote taken: daley wins by a margin of 5 to 2.
Jane-
Thanks, great post.
My money’s on W himself. No particular reason, just one of those funny feelings.
Imagine, the President of the United States of America revealing the name of a covert CIA operative to a reporter from the Washington fucking Post. Even if it’s not true, the fact that it’s within the realm of possibility is beyond surreal.
Wilson46201 | 11.20.05 – 7:42 pm
Miller’s role remains an enigma…
Nah… she was Miss Scarlet in the Drawing Room with the knife and the wrench AND Professor Plum.
-
re: Woodward being as dense as a post. Joan Didion wrote a fabulous piece back in 1996.
http://www.tpmcafe.com/story/2005/11/16/141416/18
eek
apologies for the
multiple postings.
Yes, great catch on the date, J.H. In fact, it was a Big-Time Major League catch!
You wrote: There was a coordinated, tag-team effort in place to make sure that everyone who got a leak also got a confirming source.”
That made me realize how extra humiliating it will be for this presidency when the whole (or even half) house of cards comes a’tumbling down.
Why? Because everyone on the White House Plamegate and/or Treasongate ‘tag team’ got promoted after the 2004 election for being such good accomplices!
Bush promoted all those rats to higher positions! Maybe we should be pulling for Bush to finish out his term, because if you think the whole country is seeing Bush right now for what he really is (insert metaphor and/or epithet here), then just wait until Fitzgerald has finished shaking the monkeys out of the trees (you’ve entered the mixed metaphor zone).
By 2008, the current incumbent will appear in totality to the entire nation and world as a giant rodent gnawing on a huge piece of cheese, with his eyes darting around like Tricky Dick. What kind of coat-tail (rat-tail?) will that be?
Long live King Rat!
And sweeping the crumbs from under his royal patron will be the royal butler, the many-legged caterpillar known as Woodward.
Love,
The News Nag
bbq
I guess that’s Brewster Jennings
and the drift , which has yet to be multi sourced so far as i can tell is that Brewster Jennings intercepted a post war inbound WMD shipment which would have been very conveniently found
tinfoil hat stuff for now – but so was the WHIG ‘cabal’
on a lighter note
someone has registered :
http://www.brewsterjennings.com/
Just caught -
Maybe Woodward can guest-blog on Judith Miller’s new website?
CSears | 11.20.05 – 6:29 pm | #
Fab!
anastasia.. agreed woodward is bad bad guy, now.
do you think he was off on his own or actually carrying out an assignment from the WH. perhaps he was told that Fitz’ investigation may cause damage to WH important mission. mission being some neocon bullshit and woodward falls for it. he’s convinced he has a more patriotic duty than just being a reporter? why ekse would he call attention to himself with his comentary on the whole affair.
“I suppose that’s how they wheeled in Novak’s coffin undetected” :D
Thank you for making this
a very merry day.
egregious pronouncement du jour:
Fitzgerald is from Chicago.
If dead people can vote,
then dead people can testify.
Disclaimer For People With No
Sense Of Humor: this is about
Novak’s looks, not his health.
twould be interesting to know exactly at what time the NYTimes story appeared online on the 24th. I check the front page of the NYTimes regularly after 7pm or so to pick up fresh stories that will be in the next days paper. Sometimes new stories appear as early as 5pm or so…
turd blossom, these libs are funny. they thing Dick leaked to Woodward.
did we win 2 elections for being this dumb? Mr. X is Cheney ha ha.
why would Dick tell Fitz about Woody? Libby is going down for Dick.
prabhata — ‘cos they were so proud Elliot Abrams finally DIDN’T have a hand in one of their messes?
percy — I think smearing his enemies is something W delights in. It’s exactly the kind of thing Rove would’ve brought to him, kinda like a bright, shiny trinket.
emptywheel — oh I have no doubt Bob kills stories, that one just would’ve been too big to kill. The NYT and the WaPo are locked in a steel cage death match to own this story. No way he kills something that big when the Times is running with it. The WaPo had their ass handed to them on the Cheney story, I’m sure it’s a big part of the newsroom’s rage against Booby.
re: Pincus — not sure specifically why he’s pissed, but I’ll ask.
Vicki — for the record, I don’t buy Rover or Judy when they say they can’t remember, but I do believe Woodward is an idiot.
Pach — no idea what Cheney would say at this point. If it isn’t Cheney, one would think they would be wanting to go before the GJ again and claim they’ve been the victim of the virulent DC memory flu that’s going around. If it is Cheney — who fucking knows. I still think they’ll boot him before the SOTU, but how Fitzgerald goes about indicting him is anybody’s guess, not like he’s got an “Idiot’s Guide to Indicting the Vice President of the United States” sitting on his desk.
a quick note for those wishing W to take the fall
be careful what you wish for
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U…..succession
take w an big time out and you get denny ‘i like to watch well oiled boys grapple’ hassert
possibly the lesser of three evils is the cheney mccain swapout with an emasculated w limping through the last 3 years
So…. Maybe Big Time did tell Woody… Then maybe Woody sat on the info (going in and out of the white house doing his interviews and blah blah blahing to everyone who would talk to him). He’s hoping it will all just go away until he realizes Libby is in deep deep doo doo. Maybe even until Oct 23 when he realizes Big was the one who also told Libby. Woody then comes clean with his boss, that WaPo Dood Lenny guy because he knows it’s a conspiracy and it’s NOT going away.
Ok.. Seeing his chance to take down yet another White House and since Fitz is going to do it sooner or later anyway, he drops a nickel on Big. And as a token of his love and respect for the WH, he promises Big that he won’t out him as Mr. X until he absolutely HAS to… or until someone else does. Whichever comes first. This gives Big enough time to locate the poison pill he is sure to swallow the moment all this hits the public fan.
Big Time, in the white house, with bad intentions.
Jane,
Brilliant and nailed with style. Acerbic style. Although I’ve bet on Hadley before, I sure hope you’re correct.
As for blondes, and I used to be one myself, I found this for you, from http://www.asmartblonde.com/blondejokes.htm
— Dear Diary,
Last year I replaced all the windows in my house with those expensive, double pane energy efficient kind. But this week I got a call from the contractor who installed them. He was complaining that the work had been completed a whole year ago and I hadn’t paid for them.
Hellloooo? Now just because I’m blonde doesn’t mean that I am automatically stupid. So, I told him just what his fast talking sales guy had told me last year… namely, that in just ONE YEAR these windows would pay for themselves!
Hellloooo? It’s been a year! (I told him)
There was only silence at the other end of the line, so I finally just hung up….
He didn’t call back. Guess I won that stupid argument. —-
-
Excellent analysis (as usual) Jane. I still think that it’s Hadley, but I’m intrigued by the thought that it might be Shrub himself.
Wasn’t Woodward interviewing Shrub (for his book) around the time he found out about Plame? Donnie’s excuse for Bobby to give confidentiality to “gossip” was that the “gossip” was dropped during an extended conversation — all of which was considered confidential. Shrub (if he was being interviewed by Bobby at this time) would have had, of course, lengthy conversations with Woodward. It is possible that Shrub was relaxed (or drunk) enough to let it slip out.
Cheney doesn’t seem the type to get into a lengthy conversation with WaPo reporters, but who knows? Again, my money’s on Hadley, but I don’t think that Shrub is an impossibility.
gbs – good question.
I think that you need more to prove a conspiracy than just the testimony of one conspirator.
They would probably like something in the way of emails, memos, phone logs, etc. and more than one person to testify.
The thing that gets me is Woodward. malfeasance in the Bush Administration; for sure. It’s what we expect. But the possible corruption of one of journalism’s heros (Bob Woodward) is just bad awful.
It’s hard to give the guy the benefit of the doubt for a few reasons. Trying to spin Fitz’ investigation as “a disgrace” isn’t exactly responsible, coming from a journo. After all, how would Woodward know such a thing? At that point there had been indictments, no press conference, and unlike Starr, no leaks.
Yet Woodward confidently runs around making the most outrageous comments, even to the point of making personal attacks.
He’s hiding something. And even if it’s just about book sales, it’s a corruption of his role as reporter and managing editior of the Post, and it’s a scandal.
mack.. thanks.
any connection between jenings brewster and no wmds in iraq?
Why Bob and how did he come by his access? Not because of Watergate fame which was a right place/right time serendipity although it did allow him to easily climb the WaPo ladder.
From Wikipedia: Woodward was born in Geneva, Illinois, the son of Alfred E. Woodward, a judge. He attended Yale University on a Navy Reserve Officer Training Corps scholarship, joining Book and Snake and graduating in 1965.
One of the oldest and most prestigious secret societies at Yale University, Book and Snake is known as a much more progressive and laid back society than most of its counterparts… Notable members include… current CIA Director Porter J. Goss.
So Bobby is well enough versed in Skull & Bones speak to earn him Bush’s lap.
they needed ‘a lot’ of reporters to ‘have heard’ that Plame/Wilson was a CIA agent so that, hey presto, they could call it ‘common knowledge’ – you know, just the regular old stuff of gossip, which in fact Woodward described it as early on… a deliberate attempt to muddy the waters indeed….
Swopa beat me to pointing out that the NYT article actually appeared in the Tuesday October 25th paper. (I know this means that it was posted on the evening or night of the 24th, so a conversation on the 24th is still possible, though less likely on this story.) Here’s an alternative theory I float for your consideration:
Consider instead the Pincus WaPo story of the 23rd (or his of the 24th), which explained that and how early (Feb. 6, 2004) Fitzgerald had gotten explicit authority from DoJ to expand his inquiry to include any crimes committed with intent to interfere with the investigation — perjury, obstruction of justice, destructive of evidence, intimidation of witnesses. Reading the story and appreciating the significance of what Fitzgerald had posted on Friday, Woodward realizes that he has been in touch with his source about their conversation twice, at least once and probably twice after Feb. 6 2004 — and not having told Downie, that might make Woodward look like an active participant in the obstruction of the investigation. So he tells Downie. Of course, Woodward still looks like he has knowledge of what might be considered an attempt to obstruct the investigation by his source, so when Libby gets indicted on just these issues, Woodward gets in touch with his source and says, if you don’t go forward, I will, this makes me look too bad and potentially even opens me up to criminal liability. Et voila, here we are.
I am sure there are holes in this theory, I just made it up on the spot. But it has the elegant feature that it perfectly coheres with Woodward’s bizarrely emphatic criticism of Fitzgerald for going after obstruction-related charges. But it does remove the spotlight from Cheney, I’m afraid.
From Jonathan Chait in the LA Times:
“IT’S BEEN A bleak few months for those in the Bush administration. It’s become clear that they’re not good at fighting counterinsurgencies in Iraq. They’re not good at handling natural disasters. They’re not good at managing the budget. They’re not even good at avoiding indictments.
What are they good at? Oh, yes: running against John Kerry.”
http://www.latimes.com/news/op…..commentary
Agh! That was the question I was going to ask, Pachacutec, you beat me to it…
So what happens if Cheney goes all “executive privilege” on us? At what point would he do it, about what would he do it, and how does Fitz work within it/around it? Big Time already set precedent with the Energy Task Force documents, after all, claimed privilege over them and fought tooth-and-claw for them, as yet unreleased. I expect the same M.O.
(Makes one wonder exactly what’s in the Energy Task Force documents, doesn’t it?)
In addition to Judge tatel using the phrase “the plot against Wilson” in his DC Circuit opinion requiring Cooper and Miller to testify, it’s also worth noting that another judge on the panel, J. Henderson (a G.H.W. Bush appointee) also concluded that the testimony was required because “the Special Counsel’s evidentiary proffer overcomes any hurdle. however high, a federal common law reporter’s privilege may erest.”
In other words, Judge Henderson concluded that Fitzgerald’s evidence was so strong (but it was all redacted and confidential) that it overcame any possible press shield that might even exist under federal law.
That sounds like more than mere gossip. He has flipped somebody (Wurmser?) who has provided evidence that the court saw that this was a conspiracy. I don’t think anything less would have imppressed the Court.
FWIW, I threw some chicekn bones on the floor and the results still suggested to me its Hadley, not Cheney.
I just wanted you all to know that I am indeed being scientific about this.
I still say Woodpecker is a red herring. Even if someone wanted him to disseminate the Plame story, he didn’t. He took a pass on the opportunity and three weeks or so later, the shit hit the fan. He may have misjudged his source’s intentions by thinking it was gossip, but so far, we don’t have any direct evidence to the contrary. I’d say Woody is guilty of sloth, but unfortunately, that isn’t a crime.
siun
w’s visit reminds of the seinfeld quote
sometimes the road less travelled is less travelled for a reason
i concur that u or i might find it enjoyable,
maybe w wanted to experince that famous bar-b-que
(i know because i passed one in a forray to a chicago suburb which seemed halfway to siberia)
emptywheel: thanks for the response.
I guess I’m trying to envision what such an endgame might look like, if indeed we are entering such an endgame scenario.
I assume that if Cheney asserts executive privelege, then the applicability of the claim gets litigated, no?
siun:
Back when I was in high school, the name for Mongolia was Outer Mongolia. Sorta like Outer Limits, huh? Good place for Bush to be actually. If only he would stay there a little longer.
So that leaves us with the Cheney’s clique. I’d say it’s someone in that group. For one thing, they were the real Kool-Aid guzzlers, while the Colin Powell posse took dainty sips.
Anastasia — that one made me laugh.
refreshing HaloScan
bbq
i think the attack was a scatter shot – it didn’t matter how many actualloy published – one was sufficient, but the scatter was meant to muddy the water
i also think that the brewster jennings stuff will take on more significance. both as the actual primary target of the leak and the actual damage.
i just cannot see ending valarie wilson’s career by a public outing as being the primary objective. There are so many other ways to end a career, and these men’s power was at it’s peak.
of course there is always the possibility they really were that stupid
Interesting comment upthread, second time I’ve heard about the VX thing; the problem, though, is Madsen, need a second source. Would love to ask Larry Johnson what he thought about the VX story; would I get a denial outright, or a non-denial denial about the potential truth behind this story?
I’ve always wondered why Wilson, why Plame, why not simply shush them and ignore them; it’s pissed me off to no end that a cabal that presses its “whacko” base’s button with so-called family values would deliberately and maliciously out a mother with toddlers. The compelling value in doing this must have been much greater than the potential downside if it came out that they “flamed” Plame. What could be so damnably valuable when the war was already a done-deal, and in mid-2003 still had the potential for roses thrown at the victors in the street???
Sure, if it was Big Time, he’s a nasty-enough piece of work that he might be able to do it without a second thought, but he’s still pretty pragmatic about the ROI of doing such a thing. Which brings me back to the cost-benefit analysis…I don’t think we should dismiss the VX thing out of hand, particularly since the cabal insisted for so damned long there would be WMD found.
[p.s. re: Sam 6:45pm — on McCain & Rove: keep your friends close, keep your enemies closer…also need to remember that McCain is a granddaddy to the PNAC, former chair of the New Citizen Project. They have many common friends and ends, yes?]
Assuming that there was a conspiracy to out Plame and/or cover up the leak of her name (which I believe to be the case), what does Fitzgerald need in the way of evidence to prove that a conspiracy existed? Is it only possible to make such a case if one of the conspirators turns state’s witness? Is that the only way to prove intent? Or does the accumulation of circumstantial evidence indicating that all the players involved were participating in a common pattern of behavior–is that enough to bring the charge?
Woodward is known to be close to Colin Powell, and by extension Armitage as well.
On the other hand, I’m doubtful that the Colin Powell clique would be interested in outing Plame.
So that leaves us with the Cheney’s clique. I’d say it’s someone in that group. For one thing, they were the real Kool-Aid guzzlers, while the Colin Powell posse took dainty sips.
for a laugh, take a listen to CNN trying to make W’s visit to Mongolia sound important – they’ve just said “historic visit” at least 10X – but the only thing historic about it is that it’s the first time a prez has gone there. So why is he there? because Mongolia has 126 soldiers in Iraq apparently.
I should mention that Mongolia is a place I would like to visit – saw a great piece on tv once about the demise of traditional nomadic culture and it was beautiful and is another vanishing way of life. Still, not exactly a W sort of vacation spot methinks – but sure is far away from all those hard questions.
I might have fallen for WH spin but I suspect the Woodward leak was an “outlier” to a book writer and not a part of the deliberately conspired leaking for publication for political impact. Novak was for publication obviously. Miller’s role remains an enigma…
What was Woodward’s relationship with Cheney like? Somehow I got the impression that Cheney didn’t talk to Woodward all that much. I guess Jane’s $.35 book should answer some of these questions.
I can see Chimpy being all cozy with Booby and passing this on, even if no one had told him to.
questions…which may be relevant… or may not:
the 2 major reporters who were early recipients of the leak of Plame’s name and at least part of her status were made to 2 major reporters: woodward and Miller. yet neither wrote a story about it and both tried their damndest to “protect” their “sources.”
Is their any significance to this?
was there a different role other than disseminating for these 2?
Was the leaker shooting for a posible 1 out of three among novak, woodward and miller?
can someone take a shot at this?
To add to my previous comment. It’s interesting that two out of three people that Scott said were not involved, were confirmed to be involved. Why would Scott ask Abrams, Libby and Rove?
Q Scott, you have said that you, personally, went to Scooter Libby, Karl Rove and Elliot Abrams to ask them if they were the leakers. Is that what happened? Why did you do that, and can you describe the conversations you had with them? What was the question you asked?
MR. McCLELLAN: Unfortunately, in Washington, D.C., at a time like this, there are a lot of rumors and innuendo. There are unsubstantiated accusations that are made. And that’s exactly what happened in the case of these three individuals. They’re good individuals, they’re important members of our White House team, and that’s why I spoke with them, so that I could come back to you and say that they were not involved. I had no doubt of that in the beginning, but I like to check my information to make sure it’s accurate before I report back to you, and that’s exactly what I did.
Press briefing Oct 7 2003
does anyone have a link to details on brewster jennings?
has anyone done anything in depth about their history and their contacts?
I’ll take door #2. I bet a gazillion dollars it’s Cheny. Always have.
Just mail my check to bumfuck Iowa.
somebody explained to W why that awful Joe Wilson was saying those nasty things about the WhiteHouse but it was all a CIA plot which was proven by CIA wifey getting that blowhard the free vacation trip…
Percy – I agree that the “Plame Patrol” would not *task* W with passing on info but I sure can see him chatting with Woodward and saying “gee, even that Wilson guy who’s after us just went on the trip ’cause his wife sent him” W is a nasty little bit of business and given the descriptions of his conversations in the book about Paul O’Neil, I can easily picture this. Still, I’m sure the strategy to get Wilson (or I would say – the strategy to get Brewster Jennings since I think that was the big target and JW was just an interim target) was hatched by Cheney and crew. I don’t think these options are mutually exclusive by any means.
But why would they even feed W the details of what they were doing? It’s not in anybody’s interest to have W wallow in that particular mud.
Of course, I’m assuming logical thinking…
Where does Elliott Abrams fit in Plame scandal? If it wasn’t Cheney, I would put money that Abrams is the one who told Woodward that Wilson’s wife worked for the CIA. My gut tells me so.
It appeared online on Sunday night, October 23, for the Monday edition of the NYT.
You’re off by a day — it appeared Monday night for the Tuesday edition.
Is it possible that Downie talked to Woodward that evening?
W outting Plame to Woodward would not be a planned part of the process. W is spacey enough to do it all by himself! He might not even have recalled doing it…
Jane and emptywheel – compelling analysis. I’m ready to put my money on Big Time in the parlor with the difibrillator.
To those nominating W – I just can’t buy that the Plame Patrol would a) risk W’s deniability b) trust him to pull off a casual “Oh, by the way,” Plame outing. This is a man who can’t even find his way off a podium.
Although on the subject of Booby holding stories, he admits he does just that in December 2001. Someone from the CIA contacted HIM (not Downie) to ask that a story two other writers had written be held up. Woodward talks to Downie who talks to the CIA guy and then holds the story for two days. And when it was published, Woodward got the top blyine on it.
A pretty odd way to go about getting the WaPo to sit on a story. But
“I suppose that’s how they wheeled in Novak’s coffin undetected” :D
Thank you for making this
a very merry day.
egregious pronouncement du jour:
Fitzgerald is from Chicago.
If dead people can vote,
then dead people can testify.
Disclaimer For People With No
Sense Of Humor: this is about
Novak’s looks, not his health.
I was trying to remember something I had read about Woodward’s mental limitations–something about a terrible inability to connect obvious dots, which might have explained why he kept calling the Plame matter “idle chatter.” Couldn’t find what I was looking for, but did find an interesting article from The Weekly Standard (sorry) by Andrew Ferguson, dated May 2004: http://www.weeklystandard.com/…..n.asp?pg=1
Interesting insight into how Woodward works, why the WH was so hot for his book, and how stupid and junior-high-school the WH really is.
if it is Cheney: Woodward claims he told Pincus early on who it was. Pincus vigorously denies this. Believe me, if it were the Vice President of the USA involved in the leak, Pincus would have jumped on the story like a frog on a junebug!
Having the Veep leaking in the Plame story is too big to keep under wraps too much longer…
FWIW, I think the NYT is more likely of sharing in a conspiracy charge. They launched a full-scale martyrdom campaign AFTER they knew Libby was trying to obstruct justice.
Plus, the details surrounding Judy’s non-publication of a story in June 2003 have not come out. And any related obstruction they’ve done by not releasing the materials they have that related to that story.
refreshing HaloScan, apologies…
Pach
I think it depends on what day Dick leaked to Boobie.
If he leaked after the 12th, when he knows Fitz knows he knew Plame was CPD, then he avoids testifying by invoking executive privilege. If he leaked before that, I think he testifies, arrogantly believing that he will get off because his only crime is a violation of his security agreement (that he should have checked Plame’s identity before passing it on). Remember, unless Fitz can prove that Dick knew Plame was covert, then he can’t charge Dick with IIPA or espionage, no matter how obvious Dick’s denials are.
Then again, there’s the Fleitz wildcard.
Does Fitz now have evidence that Dick knew earlier than the 12th? And knew not just that she was a CPD employee, but explicitly knew she was a NOC?
Could some of the reporters and media companies be indicted on conspiracy charges?
Yes, I’d like to know where lies the line between protecting an anonymous source and conspiracy/aiding and abetting a crime.
What happens if Woodward is called to testify? Will he have the balls to clam up if ordered to reveal his source and go to jail for a good while, or will he succumb to the pressure and talk?
I don’t know, but something tells me he ain’t got the stomach for institutional food.
I am sorry to say I forget the detail, but Pincus is ticked off because woodward asked him not to look into something related to this so Pincus stopped. Now Pincus, an longtime reporter with professional pride, knows he was betrayed.
Jake tells me that on his walks sometimes he
finds two layers of shit. So he eats through
both of them, smelling as he goes and
remembering it all. A cover -up of a cover-up.?
These plotters may think they are good but
Fitz has the best nose in the business.
Sure hope the Fitz reads Firedoglake at night.
The Junkyard dog howls at the Moon and
runs with the best of them.
Alright, going back to the Cheney never signed a waiver theme. Here’s what the AP reported as Dick’s denial:
What if Booby is the source for this story? After all, only he and Fitz and, perhaps, Downie, know what day “that day” is. Only those three know the contents of Woodward’s notes.
“I suppose that’s how they wheeled in Novak’s coffin undetected” :D
Thank you for making this
a very merry day.
egregious pronouncement du jour:
Fitzgerald is from Chicago.
If dead people can vote,
then dead people can testify.
Disclaimer For People With No
Sense Of Humor: this is about
Novak’s looks, not his health.
jane: wonderful compendium. A very succint reflection of the thinking to date. I appreciate the way you narrow the likely cast of suspects without succumbing to the temptation to double down on one player. It helps everyone keep digging so we can work this together.
I have a question for the community:
Let’s assume for a moment that Woodward’s source was Cheney, and Cheney has, as a result, been called to talk with Fitzgerald.
What is he asked?
What does he say?
What is Cheney’s posture, his attitude toward the questioning?
I think we can assume that Fizy actually has a fair amount of information about Cheney’s communications, but perhaps has not been able to confirm some of the testimony he has already obtained. Does he ask Cheney question that Fitz himself does not yet know the answer to? I doubt it.
So does Cheney take the fifth amendment at any point? And can Cheney refuse to testify? Does Cheney get a target letter either before or after the interview?
And after Cheney is interviewed, what happens next?
Fitzy’s has called for a new grand jury. Does he have enough to charge Cheney?
Would he charge Cheney for anything less that a substantive charge (Espionage Act, IIPA), probably including conspiracy? Would he hit Cheney with something like what Libby got, some mix of obstruction, false statements? Does Cheney first get called in to testify before the grand jury before any charges are filed?
I’m interested in what you legal eagles think are the next steps. How does one approach charging the vice president?
I still find it hard to believe that the house of cards would be fallling so quickly, but who knows.
Do we at least agree that Woodward’s source, whoever it is, is likely to be involved with the next round of grand jury testimony, or charges, assuming there are either?
P
That’s a really brilliant question. Particularly given the weird parsing from Dick’s camp (if it even was Dick’s camp) to deny involvement, that Dick “has not had any conversation with over the past several weeks about any release for allowing Woodward to testify.”
emptywheel: And was someone at both the NYT and WaPo spiking stories to protect Big Time?
Emptywheel, Jane, and ReddHedd…great work!!
Emptywheel, what a frightening thought, but it does make sense!
What would be the legal implications of something like this? Could some of the reporters and media companies be indicted on conspiracy charges?
as Cheney is an elected official, I doubt if the Preznit has the authority to ask the V-P to sign a blanket release. Cheney is arrogant enough to refuse to sign one “on principle”.
I come back to the idea that Woodward is trying to save Woodward, which your post makes very much more likely.
Initially, I truly believed that Woodward was trying to save Libby. Oh, what a silly fellow I am! I wonder if anyone at all is trying to save Libby? Sure, people have raised $5 million for his lawyers, but that’s for his lawyers.
If it was Cheney, it makes Woodward look incredibly bad. Incredibly bad. Jail-time bad, perhaps.
Wouldn’t it be ironic if Woodward became the man who put the wooden stake through the hearts(?) of the Bushkin Vampires! He takes down two putrid Republican Presidents: one with his typewriter the other with his (brown) nose.
Can I ask a clarifying question. Pincus is furious at Booby for:
a) refusing to be truthful about his role all along
b) claiming he had told Pincus of Plame’s identity
c) refusing to go with the story pre-indictment
d) all of the above
And does Pincus feel like he was being set up as the possible master leaker among journalists? Would Booby have lied to help Dick out of a tight squeeze?
The deliberate vagueness about dates (given Woodward’s otherwise retentive nature) may have to do with wanting it to seem as if Cheney might have actually have told him before he talked to Libby on the 12th? To maintain the possibility that Cheney did not know about the covert status? Because if he did…
I travel the world on rented skis.
Everybody’s looking for pumpkins.
[/eurythmics]
Woodward’s nickname for sure should be “The Communicator”
Or just “The Intercom”.
Is this an extra hint than we’re overlooking?
WaPo and Woodward claim his source has not released him from confidentiality, unlike Judy Miller who said she questioned whether the release she got was forced. Since Cheney’s exempt from having to take the ethics class, does anyone know if Cheney was exempt from having to sign the blanket release everyone else had to?
One more reason I don’t buy this is Armitage (although that is a fairly credible story, better than the Rove leaks on the INR memo from this summer) is the date.
If Armitage is the leaker, he leaked it on June 13 or later.
There’s no reason to hide the date of a June 13 leak. By that point, the people in the WH brief and Dick and a number of people at OVP knew of Plame’s connection to Wilson.
Hadley as coordinator of the scheme hatched by Big Time, plotted by Scooter (he of the To DO/Have Done Lists that take up entire notebooks)… Everybody leaks to one reporter and provides confirmation to a different reporter…Ok, so far so logical and calculating. Now to add in the ego factor….of course Big Time would have to be the one who leaks to Bob-Time, because Big Time would want the puffed-up thrill of using Boobie… Big Time probably doesn’t like Dubya bein’ all chummy with Boobie, and I swear he (Cheney) really would delight in using (and abusing) one of the reporters who brought down Nixon. So….I’ll go with Big Time in the Library, vial of Poison. These people are frightening.
Excellent analysis Jane.
There is no doubt in my mind that there was a conspiracy to swiftboat the Wilsons. Joe Wilson breached the edifice of deceit – the “perception management” propaganda war that John Rendon assisted with in the lead up to the war. The fixing of intelligence to the policy and decisions made way back in 2001.
The question is will Fitz uncover this conspiracy despite the sand thrown in his eyes?
Will the American public allow the conspirators to get away through obfuscation?
We can be certain that Cheney, Bush and all their minions where part of the conspiracy to intentionally deceive America into this ill-fated quagmire in Iraq.
emptywheel — Although Pincus is reportedly furious at Woodward (or so I heard today), I can’t see Woodward being able to kill what was arguably the story of the year as the Times and the WaPo compete to “own” this story, esp. since the Times was going to publish it anyway.
And yeah, I’d love to know who leaked to the NYT too, but I’m afraid I don’t at this point. Gimme some time on that one ;)
I’ve operated under the assumption that it was Rove trying to get the spotlight off of himself, which it most certainly did for a moment. Didn’t Lee Atwater say “give them a bigger story” or something like that? Fitz already knew, so they weren’t leaking to him.
McCain my dog Jake tells me is eating Rover’s
shit as McCain wants to walk and piss along
with the Executive big boys when he might
be elevatated to the V.P slot. Otherwise
how come would he be carrying water forRove.
Does this signal that McCain thinks it may be Big Time who told Woodward. Rove’s long knife at work.
My goodness this is more intrique here than in
the late 60’s trying to figure out what was
going in Communist China with the Red Guard
purges led my Mao.
a
Check out Tom Engelhardt’s and Elizabeth de la Vega’s take on how BushCo’s efforts to pretend that Libby is off the hook may well in fact take down not just Libby, but a whole passel of other BushCo figures:
http://www.tomdispatch.com/index.mhtml?pid=38034
now this post is very, very interesting. i feel like it will go somewhere. please keep analyzing.
i cant get over my objections when i think to myself of woodward’s comments about this being “gossip”.
a man trained in naval intelligence (using the term “intelligence”loosely)?
gossip my ass. wouldn’t you expect a reporter who has been in d.c. for decades to realize that high-level officials don’t “gossip” to reporters — about a clandestine agent or any other matter. (bob, the wife and i are thinking about cocktails for a few good friencs party. could you and the missus make it. and by the way rove’s boy friend has left him and wilson’s wife is a cia noc.”)
why would bob have been entitled to hear “gopssip” about valerie p. wilson? does he have a special secureity clearance like judy did?
answer:
yes, it’s the special “we need to subborn your paper and mislead your readers” clearance. it’s kind of like a battlefield commission.
on another related matter:
there is a style of rhetoric that has been employed by keller and, now, downie that has the same feel to it as the rhetoric used by government officials covering up (e.g., rumsfeld) or corporate officals covering up (lay or his lawyers).
and on the matter of journalists “protecting” sources we are comforted to learn form this mess that –
we (wapo) never betray a source; we never betray a promise of confidentiality!!
how admirable.
we may be required , from time to time, to betray our readers’ trust or to betray our nation.
but we do our best to be fair and impartial.
Oh, another thing:
Check into the dealings of Mrs. Wilson’s CIA “cover company” Brewster Jennings. Wayne Madsen has some interesting developments on that subject and why the WH believed it was of utmost importance to blow its cover.
“PlameGate” is a misnomer – it truly is “TreasonGate.” Always has been, always will be.
Go to waynemadsenreport.com and read it for yourself.
OT, but a good story. My daughter took her four kids, ages 3 to 8, to visit the McKinley Museum and Monument today. The 8 year-old knows that McKinley was shot and that he is buried there. He asked his mom if the same person who shot Lincoln shot McKinley.
She said no, it was someone else. Then the 5 year-old pipes up, “I know who shot him – George Bush did it.”
I guess this may be the ONE crime that he isn’t guilty of!
…..
McCain on Larry King tonight just said that he knows W well enough that W wouldn’t pardon someone found guilty by a jury of their peers. okay…
King gave a lead-in to a question about Rove by recalling the Rovian dirty tricks campaign to which McCain fell victim and asked if Rove should at least lose his security clearance. McCain said “Do I think someone under investigation should have it revoked? No.” Zero follow-up from King. ugh.
If Rove gets dragged onto the cobble once and for all, a presidential hopeful like McCain better expect some embarrassing questions about why he was Karl’s doughboy before Karl got taken down.
.
I think the problem we’re all having in deciphering this information is that these people think in ways that no decent and honorable person would or does. They’re truly sick, twisted criminals, and we all know there is no honor among thieves.
I have no doubt we’ll find out what’s going on much sooner than later, but that’s not to say that what comes out will be the truth.
I think it’s Cheney, obviously. I’ll be pleasantly surprised if it turns out to be him, but I’ll be stunned if it does.
From Reuters on Yahoo:
“Efforts are under way to determine whether Zarqawi was among those killed,” the U.S. official said in Washington, speaking on condition of anonymity. He provided no additional information.”
The very next paragraph says:
“White House spokesman Trent Duffy, traveling with President George W. Bush in Asia, said it was “highly unlikely and not credible” that Zarqawi was among the dead in Mosul.”
Could that U.S. official be connected to Cheney?
Would some good news like capturing Osama bin Laden or in this case Zarkawi likely give the Pres a boost in the polls? But, the Pres says it’s unlikely. Hmm…
Hey, maybe Woodward was Deep Throat himself and he had to wait until Felt was old enough to believe that indeed, it was him!
Woodward’s nickname for sure should be “The Communicator”
ya know, they often say that the simpliest answer is the true one.
Here’s another question.
Who leaked to the NYT? Was it someone like Cathie Martin, who seems to be a cooperating witness in this? Was it Rove? The only other detail of Libby’s notes we had gotten before (also from the NYT) is of his conversations with Dick on July 12.
I think it’s a relevant question, because it may be that Booby got the same leak.
Here’s an idea. What if, say, Pincus got that same leak. And went to publish it but Booby, he of the “keep me out of the Plame coverage” squashed the story.
And let me go back to the NYT for a second. Recall that, in the big NYT tell-all, they basically admitted that someone–who sounded a lot like JehlJohnstonStevenson–got a story spiked this summer when they had gotten too close to Libby and others involved in the leak. Did JJS have the Libby notes earlier, in August? And was someone at both the NYT and WaPo spiking stories to protect Big Time?
Think I’m in the “Chimpy poppin off to his court stenographer” camp.
heh heh heh [/Jon S]
Jane, this is not an apparent relationship that we can expect anybody to just realize.
time to contact the fritzster to point out the dates you’ve uncovered.
off topic I know, but rumsfeld threw Bush under the bus this week
this is really unbelievable…like a rat abandoning a sinking ship;
In last SundayÂ’s Washington Post, Rumsfeld tries to shed blame from his inept performance at his command:
For there comes a point when even the secretary of defense must realize that “it’s not your decision or even your recommendation,” Rumsfeld reflected with Woodward. By which he meant the Iraq war wasn’t Don Rumsfeld’s decision or recommendation.
now check this out, on ABC’s “this week” Rumsfeld has the nerve to tell Stephanopoulos that he “didnÂ’t advocate invasion” and in fact, “wasnÂ’t asked” about the decision.
what a friggin idiot!
Rumsfeld is a revisionist now…in friggin 1998 he signed a letter BEGGING President Clinton to “turn his attention to implementing a strategy for removing SaddamÂ’s regime from power. This will require a full complement of diplomatic, political and military efforts.”
then, IMMEDIATELY after we were attacked on our soil BY AFGHANISTAN, Rumsfeld was PRESSURING his aides and advisers “to come up with plans for striking Iraq — even though his own aids reminded him there was NO link to Saddam Hussein .
no denying it either, this is by his own sworn testimony and the notes of his advisers, he wanted “best info fast. Judge whether good enough hit [Saddam Hussein] at same time. Not only [Osama bin Laden].”
so now he’s trying to shed all the blame onto Bush and Cheney
twit
I’m gonna throw my money on Mr. Crackpot, along with Thesaurus Rex.
Maybe Woodward can guest-blog on Judith Miller’s new website?
Is it possible that Woodward set up a fall
back plan with Rove that if he was outed
he would pin it on a SAO other than the
top dogs who might have told him.
The ultimate fire-wall. Then Rove went to
Hadley who would agree to fall on the sword
for Cheney or Bush if Woodward was outed.
or it could be Bolton to take the fall.
How do we know Woodward is really telling
the truth to Fitz and Downie. He could be
lying. Maybe Fitz put him through the newest
stomach lie detector tests. I know this sounds
far fetched. Yet Woodward has a habit of
constipation. He sure can hold things in under
great pressure. Thirty some years on
Deep Throat 1.
Time will tell soon.
great sleuthing Jane.
Oh my god, that Novak line killed me.
Absolutely hilarious.
Of course, it could be that Woodward only mentioned it to Downie on the 24th because of the NYT article, and Rove flipping forced him into testifying. The two episodes could be discreet. Like emptywheel, still trying to put all the pieces together. But I did give a little “yelp” when I looked back through the FDL archives and realized what had happened on Oct. 24.
You hit it on the head. The other impetus for Boobie was Rove giving up someone on the Libby indictment date. Maybe Rove gave up “You know, Big Time talked with Boobie June 12, here are the phone records”.
This jibes with theories advanced at the Next Hurrah that the reason Rove/Libby/Hadley never spoke to Booby is because they already knew Big Time was covering it.
This also jibes with accounts that Boobie’s source had testified, but not under oath.
Still thinking here. Suppose Booby did react to the JehlJohnstonStevenson piece. Put that together with his refusal to reveal when he was leaked to. What does that say?
(Not sure what it says, but I’m thinking…)
My money is on W himself as the first leaker. He felt all comfortable and everything chatting with Woodward. Besides, I had a dream in which the headline “BUSH RESIGNS” appeared.
Sweet dreams are made of this.
Who am I to disagree?
[/eurythmics]
Damn, I again missed the chance to post in the last thread something relevant to the main piece, so I hope no one minds it here.
About exiting Iraq: Karen Kwiatkowski, former Air Force officer who worked closely (or near) the OSP while it was actively stovepiping selected info to the WH has written her view of what needs to be done now. She is Libertarian (a group leftists really need to align with on anti-warism, by the way) and she’s got a real no-nonsense point of view. I think her ideas needs serious consideration.
“Our Inscrutable Iraq Policy: Why We Did It, What To Do Now, and What Happens Next”
http://www.lewrockwell.com/kwi…..ki128.html
“No one, neither hawks nor doves, wants to give up what we have got in Iraq – for hawks it is the bases and the ability to leverage the region, without Saddam as a thorn in our side. For doves, the idea is that we broke it and somehow we must fix it. We cannot “fix it” and we cannot stay and conduct military operations without interference and high expense. Hawks and doves are both wrong on Iraq.
. . .
[Each of the points below are more developed in the article itself.]
· Disassociate ourselves immediately from our hand-picked and CIA sponsored puppets.
· Withdraw militarily to our key bases in Iraq, and stand down in preparation to depart.
· Send a presidential representative who has credibility in the region, to make a farewell visit to major Iraqi political centers. This representative must not be a neoconservative ideologue. . . .
I’m thinking someone like retired Marine Tony Zinni.
· Abandon all hope of getting our money back, gaining contracts or military bases in Iraq, having Iraq as a democracy that likes us or even having Iraq as a single unified state.
· After a short time, we completely depart from Iraq.
· Power struggles in Iraq will continue, and people in Iraq will continue to suffer and die. However, this will be short-lived once we leave.
Who has the scariest face?
Woodshill
Andrea Mitchell
Big Time
Jean Schmidt
“…were often brought up in some secret back elevator to avoid press scrutiny, and I suppose that’s how they wheeled in Novak’s coffin undetected.”
Now THAT’s funny.
My money is on W himself as the first leaker. He felt all comfortable and everything chatting with Woodward. Besides, I had a dream in which the headline “BUSH RESIGNS” appeared.
Superb post, Jane.
I’m fairly sure one of the INR stories this summer said that Powell, Armitage, and Undersecretaries had been interviewed. Which would put them in the same category as Big Time. But Fitz has had a long conversation with everyone involved in the INR memo, including, I’d wager, Bolton (in spite of what he says).
My bet is Gee Dubya in the Oval Office with the rope. If I’m going to speculate, I might as well shoot for the kewpie doll.
It’s one thing to keep quiet about a casual conversation with a lower-level bureaucrat like Hadley or Armitage but if it’s Cheney or Bush, the political pressure on Woodward, Downie and the Post becomes highly highly intense. This is the material that history is made of…
Jane,
I would just note that Woodward didn’t trust Bradlee with Deep Throat’s identity for a while. IIRC, he didn’t give him Mark Felt’s name until around the time of Nixon’s resignation.
Before I read your post Jane, I just want to say that I am watching the Nature program titled “Katrina’s Animal Rescue. These rescuers saved thousands of pets left behind due to evacuation.
This special must underline the fact that there must be provisions set up for each and every animal shelter in this country.
These animals were left behind by owners who naturally intended to be allowed to return to theiur homes after the storm.
Mr. Brown of Fema- you suck so much. I recall Bush saying, “We will rebuild Frist’s porch bla bla bla. Anyone who thinks that we are ready to handle a bird flu virus is hanging out with the Lying Republicans too long.
When those birds start pecking at Bush’s head, will he even know to swat them? Thanks for providing a place for me to vent.
I cannot read the post because I cannot stop laughing at the “Cat out of the Bag”
ROFLMAO
good catch on the date significance! I am still stunned by the info…
I’m starting to feel offended that the creeps in the Bush administration and their lackeys in the MSM thought that we were dumb enough not to get to the bottom of this stuff.
fitz?