rwcole – Who and who? It is another attempt to go with the same memes that are now failing them everywhere else. The “threat” argument. Not that you are saying this, but are the Chinese now terrorists? What is the threat – economic? influence?

The North Koreans are terrorists, but Chimpy didn’t go bomb them, the pussy.

He is the Preznit who cried Wolf Blitzer, and that just doesn’t play any more.

I would also add that we could have a very nice long thread on whether China is a “threat” (short answer: No), as well as NK (short answer: the Chinese and/or Russians will sooner or later sit on NK -or NK will just implode, not explode).

Also, is everyone moving to the next thread.

Yes, I do, Shez. Thanks for that. I was just a bit concerned because it’s always hard to figure out who McCain really is and what he wants.

There must be pressure on McCain from goopers everywhere to STFU about all this dirt. I hope McCain’s ultimate goal is consistent with the good of the nation: the continued uncovering of every bit of dirt, no matter where investigation leads.

Dangit, what happened to my /Aquaria??? Grr. Stupid Haloscan!

McCain, it seems to me, may be the person who can publicly pressured Justice to look at Abramoff in an official investigation — it’s his baby in the Indian Affairs Committee right now.

Mrs. K8, since I’m a card carrying Tribal member I watched some of C-Span last Friday on these hearings. A big part of the questioning that I witnessed (I missed the best stuff according to comments I was hearing) was Abramobb’s personal bookkeeper and centered around emails and them covering up the true purpose of funds to a school in Israel, turns out it was a SNIPER SCHOOL and McCain was pissed and hammered away at it. Some education THAT school got, eh?

The line of questioning was not just the casinos at all in his financial wheelings and Dynamo Hum dealings. This will get bigger and bigger in all the investigations surely to come being spawned from these hearings alone. They had huge thick files of ‘exhibits’ of the emails, etc. Feel better? ;)

It is good to see you all continuing to do fine work in here people…..

I especially enjoyed Evil’s thinking and conjecture….

Keep in mind now the Plame timeline is being broadened to even earlier than was previously known….that is very significant for conspiracy and certain statutes…….

That is why I think Woody is getting off the ship……as if he and other media enterprises all loosely conspired the shit will hit the proverbial fan….

This is fershure a conspiracy job….

But……What exactly was the conspiracy?… and Who exactly was involved?….This is where Fitz is driving to is my guess…..

And until we know more answers from the bailing journos……we can only surmise at what statutes will be involved……

It feels like a total seismic event coming to me though……that is a subjective Canadian comment, but it feels as tho the media is too much in the story for the story to get out……thus the vital need for venues such as FDL….

Take back your country dudes from the handful of thieves running it….

Good point, EPU. And of course I’m aware of the internecine warfare going on behind the scenes in virtually every gov’t agency.

What’s great about corruption coming to the fore is that each revelation will embolden more dedicated civil servants to step forward to denounce the corruption they know about in their own agency.

Mrs K8 – Nixon fired 2 or three attorney generals and he went down. A more recent example is the appointment of Fitz WHILE Ashcroft was attorney general due to pressure from non-political D o J employees.

I am not saying there won’t be attempts to squelch investigations, but Watergate and Traitorgate prove it is hard to do. The vast majority of employees (including attorneys) in the D o J are NOT political appointees. The Wingnuts have tried to change this, but have either falled or, thankfully, haven’t had enough time. Look at the inspector general report and investigation of the PBS matter. That is a good example too. It is not being covered up.

In the end, never bet against a bureaucracy or the careerists in it doing the right thing and protecting their turf, their jobs, and their purpose. Most of those people work for relatively little money and do it b/c they love it and think it is important (it is), and they don’t view it as political. A crime to them is a crime, doesn’t matter who commits it, and their job is to see justice done.

EPU–well it’s the chinese and the North Koreans who Clusterfuck wants credit for intimidating now- ya know the REAL commies.

Eli, my sweetie:

I’ve been raising that issue for a while.

Don’t understand what is so damned hard about understanding what the hell you’re signing. And don’t let people try to weasel their way around things by saying, but that’s for the DIA, Libby/whoever may have had a different agreement.

They don’t. I’ve had security clearances in the military and in the defense industry. National security agreements are BOILERPLATE, for a reason (government lawyers make damn sure they can nail you if you violate the agreement). The duties and responsibilities regarding classified information do not discriminate by rank or agency, only by level of clearance.

son– no sex appeal I guess. People only want to hear about those they know about?

new thread!

rwcole – If those who disagree with Clusterfuck are commies, then the vast majority of Americans who disagree with Clusterfuck (about a lot more than the war) are commies, so that one won’t fly.

Dem’s as liars. Who cares. Clusterfuck doesn’t get not to be a liar by calling dem’s liars. He really is just keeping the issue in the open. It is HIS war, he can’t talk his way out of that. It is HIS administration and HIS policies. The more they keep the issue of lying in the news, or question the “patriotism” of those who disagree with them the more pain they will continue to cause themselves. I am one who believes the dems can just sit on the sidelines for a while and just watch them destroy themselves and each other. I could write another long post on myth and marketing and “prove” why I think all that is true, but just trust me for the moment that they can’t “market” themselves out of this by calling other people names. So, as I said, they are fucked.

I realize you did write “faint hopes,” but there are none.

rwcole,

Relative to your excellent ongoing point about the battle for airtime – do you have any ideas about why the Franklin and Savafian issues were so low mileage? My sense is that really didn’t have the kind of impact that the true gravity of both situations demand.
Weren’t the dems well coordinated yet? Were they talking points to abstract for the general public?

I am seeing Conspiracy charges in the future…..May be that Fitzmas lasts well into ‘06 and beyond……by the way, I nominate Jane & Redd for the Vintage 1970s Woodward/Bernstein Investigative Reporters Award (established before Woodward became Mr. Run Amok)

My guess would be that they will follow up on any and all crimes that come to their attention, whether directly related to the murders or not.

EPU — I hope you are right about this. A few days ago we got the depressing news that DoJ attorneys and investigators were pressured to NOT do their jobs in the matter of civil rights violations.

McCain, it seems to me, may be the person who can publicly pressured Justice to look at Abramoff in an official investigation — it’s his baby in the Indian Affairs Committee right now.

I’ve been wondering for some time just how committed McCain is to nailing Abramoff, or seeing him nailed, for ALL of his criminality.

I have no way of knowing how much he wants to be instrumental in tumbling down such a huge house of corrupt cards, which may destroy the GOP for a very, very long time, if all the tentacles of Abramoff corruption are revealed.

Mrs. K8:
Thanks so much. I thought I’d missed you last night. I will check the “carrier pigeon” thread immediately.

MORE TOP STORIES
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From MSNBC– Neither gooper story made it to the headline summary– good news.

Mrs. K8 – I don’t know the status of all the Delay Abramoff stuff, beyond Florida and the US Attorney investigation there. My guess would be that they will follow up on any and all crimes that come to their attention, whether directly related to the murders or not. They may not run with it, but that is most likely where it will first be developed. Others might have some thoughts.

EPU–

The two stories that the White House is pinning their faint hopes on are:

Cheney calls dems liars

and

Clusterfuck tells commies ta go to hell..

If neither gets traction– they’ve lost.

sonate –

Oh, I’m glad to see you here! I wrote you a lengthy response in the “Carrier Pigeon” thread last night (re: germanium), but as I got back to that thread late in the evening, I want to make sure you know that I responded to you down there.

rwcole – If all the gooper news is bad, does it matter which story? I don’t think it does, which is why I know they are fucked. In ways I think all the many crimes and failures – Traitorgate, Frist, PBS, Delay, Abramoff, Torture, Katrina, Miers – reinforces for the entire country, not just us on blogs, how corrupt, incompetent and out of touch the Wingnuts are. There is a new one out today, about bribery for Iraq contracts.

Goopers were good at controlling the message when they were making up the message. To quote Graham Parker (who unlike Rover is a genius), “There is nothing to hold on to when gravity betrays you.” That is where the Wingnuts are now, and there is no way in hell they can control it.

sonate

I think that there are several reasons for those numbers:

-The public hates em all right now (plague on both yer houses– yes it’s happened before)

-No one is paying any attention to the issues most americans are conserned about..

-Many always hate partisan bickering- and there’s a ton of it going on.

-Dems- more than goopers- are unhappy with their own party right now- for a variety of reasons- including the perception that they are not fighting back effectively.

ELI–Great post—please save it– it will be needed many times. We keep forgetting what we learn.

EPU –

It’s so damned hard to keep up: so many scandals, so little time.

Do you know who the prosecutor is who’s assigned to the Abramoff stuff? Or is it still at the level of a Congressional investigation only? (With the exception of a gangland-style murder investigation in Florida?)

Don’t know what to make of this.

Approval ratings from the polls show:
Republicans in Congress 27%
Democrats in Congress 25%
Right direction 27%
Bush Nov. 2005 34%

It is not encouraging that the public approves of Dems even less than Shrub and the congressional GOP. Does anybody remember numbers like this before….where they hated everybody??

Gov.: Storm victims nearly forgotten | | E-mail us

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• The late Rod Serling ‘reanimated’ to open ‘Medium’

Scorecard on the war for airtime– dems appear to be ahead (CNN)

The issue of whether any of these characters “knew” the information about Mrs. Wilson was classified (or not) keeps recurring in discussions and articles I read. I can’t help but believe that merely having a security clearance obliges one to FIND OUT before sharing any tidbit, gossipy or otherwise to anyone; also, to never confirm without knowing. Why this is even a question has baffled and annoyed me from the outset. No matter what Mrs. Wilson’s job description was, the fact that it was the CIA for goodness sakes begs the question, ‘Is that classified?’

I had noticed some time ago the following paragraph about the above in the Franklin indictment (AIPAC case). It’s one of the bullet points underneath #2 of “General Allegations” in the “Superceding Indictment”. Seems like it would apply to anyone with clearance, including Rove, Libby, Hadley, et al.

” * On or about July 31, 1979, FRANKLIN signed a Defense Agency (DIA) Secrecy Agreement, by which he acknowledged that he would never divulge any classified information relating to the national security without prior consent of of the Director of the Defense Intelligence Agency or his designated representative. FRANKLIN further acknowledged that THE BURDEN WAS HIS TO ASCERTAIN WHETHER INFORMATION IS CLASSIFIED AND WHO IS AUTHORIZED TO RECEIVE IT. FRANKLIN further ackowledged that he had read and understood the provisions of the Espionage Act, including 18 US.D. 794, 794 and 798.”

(Caps mine.)

This is the answer to those who would claim there is no guilt if the party — Libby, Rove, etc. — DIDN’t KNOW the information was classified.

(Indictment found at:
http://www.antiwar.com/rep2/ Fran…gIndictment.pdf )

I mis-worded my fantasy indictment comment. Guess I got all excited at seeing all the corruption come unravelled.

Should be something like this: “Because the GOP had earlier proved to have great success at money-laundering (cf. DeLay), the Republican administration applied the same principle to the laundering of a leak through compliant journalists.”

I KNOW that the WH and DeLay are not the same entities, they just sprang from the same cesspool of corruption.

Delay could result in RICO charges. We all want to see it. The Racketeer Influenced Corrupt Organizations Act was designed really to do after businesses or organizations that were/are in business to commit crimes. The plural crimes is important b/c you need a certain number of what are called “predicate acts” for a business/organization to be charged under RICO. A classic example would be a mob controlled waste hauling company that extorts money from each of its “customers,” or forces businesses to use their services through threats, intimidation whatever. Although waste hauling is a legitimate business, using it to extort money is not. PACs, lobbyists and governmental offices are subject to RICO prosecutions. Delay and Abramoff and others have seemingly used their “legitimate” business as fronts to commit many extortion/bribary type crimes.

I think there is a good chance that Abramoff and/or Delay et al get charged under RICO, particularly once they tie Delay-Abramoff officially together.

The battle right now is for airtime– there are so many stories floating that the winners will be those who get their stories heard..

Goopers are good at this game- but dems are getting better– the Woody story is actually a distraction for both right now- but it does serve to block out Clusterfuck’s lame attempt at self redemption– so I don’t mind that it’s getting play..

The story the dems want to dominate is Muthro’s.

Indictments against Lord Black? Very, very satisfying.

EPU –
Great minds, same channels. I was just about to bring up DeLay. Why? Because I would enjoy reading a conspiracy indictment that contained an editorial comment like this:

“Because of their earlier, great success in MONEY-laundering (cf. DeLay), the administration applied the selfsame principle to the laundering of a leak through the network of journalists.”

Now, I know you can’t have editorial comments like this in an indictment, that’s just a fantasy of mine, but WE certainly can scream about it all we want, can’t we?

Today there have been 2 Poynter (sp?) Institute professors on journalistic ethics saying that what Woodward did was very bad. They are both saying that accepting “gossip” as Woodward did and one sided info as Miller did without checking and then promising to kept their identities secret is not what “secret sources” is for.

Gossip and propaganda, once discovered, should void any “promise” of confidentiality. so says the experts.

These two “reporters” will not be recorded by history as heros. No, much more the opposite.

Murtha is great. Watch the video.

Mrs K8 – Absolutamundo! It was a specious argument to begin with. Really shows how desperate they are that they will fling any shit to see what might stick to the wall. None of it will.

And, if I might add, as “good” (it does really suck for the country right now) as Chimpy and the Wingnuts Traitorgate problems are, we still have Delay, the illegal gift that keeps on giving. I like that, “the illegal gift that keeps on giving.” I won’t trademark it, feel free to use it.

rwcole, pach…I guess this wasn’t a good week to stop snorting meth…so much to read.

I appreciate the links, gents.

–

rw — Glad to see you, too. Your comments are always interesting and thought-provoking.

EPU — I’ve always thought that this “journalists told us” business was the weakest defense imaginable. Unless you are one of the kool-aid poisoned who believe that Valerie outed herself (with the help of her husband), this classified information came from someone WITH the security clearance to see it. Period. End of story. Everything else about journos is smoke and mirrors.

http://americablog.blogspot.co…..ed-to.html

Link to a nice collection of Cheney whoppers.

William Swann: fair points, all. As for the “for” mistake, thanks for the correction.

By the way, you live in OH, so I will defer to you. I have seen some detailed analyses by Chris Bowers that suggest that the anti-marriage ballot initiatives were not decisive, or were at least overhyped post-election by the Dobsonites et. al. for their own political pusposes (”we own the president now”).

But I’m not prepared to discuss the matter in any depth.

Reddhedd – Ambien for toddlers. Talk to your doctor or pharmacist.

Wm Swann — Spot on. If they kill Roe, it will mean a grassroots sweep of state legislatures by the Democrats. A bottom-up rout of the GOP.

J i O – I skimmed it. I can’t “read” NYT articles on this country anymore.

It isn’t a monkey wrench. Lawyer’s who say it is are just trying to spin it for the Wingnuts. No matter what they say, the admin did out Plame and did break the law. It didn’t happen by itself. If Fitz is now wrong about Scooter being first, how important is that? Not at all. First, Fitz, I think now, is closer to getting to the conspiracy and the underlying crimes. Fitz admitted he didn’t know the entire story, and it was frustrating. He also didn’t say he was giving up on finding out the whole truth. As importantly, IMO, it shows that the info was going from the administration to reporters, NOT the other way around, which may be Scooter’s defense. I really don’t think it helps him there.

Second, specifically as to Scooter, what difference does it make if they amend the indictment to say Scooter was the second person, or the third.
I will point out again that I thought Scooter’s attorney’s comment to the effect that the new information proves that Scooter was not the first administration official to out Plame to reporters was amazingly, phenomally stupid. An admission that Scooter did in fact out Plame, even if he wasn’t the first. Others may read what Scooter’s lawyer said differently, but that is how I take it, and I think it is reasonable to take it that way.

The new info has nothing to do with obstruction, perjury or false statements. And, I would add, it gives more credence to the idea there was a conspiracy by administration officials to get Joe by outing Val, and that Scooter was a part of that conspiracy.

Hi Mrs. K— glad to see you.

RH – you’re welcome – believe me, it’s my pleasure.

Hey guys, got a chance to pop in again briefly.

What a day! Goopers still on the run, as it seems they will be for the foreseeable future.

Congratulations to our good friend Fitzgerald for his Conrad Black indictment.

Wouldn’t it be loverly if he could be named Special Prosecutor in the Abramoff matter? Then we’d really see the GOP run, run, run away. Elbowing Osama out of the way for a good spot in the cave!

I guess he already has lots on his plate, huh?

Notice the timing of the Murtha announcement….

“Get the troops out now”– just when Clusterfuck in in Korea tryin to win some approval points back with harsh rhetoric directed at China and the North Koreans..

Clusterfuck tryin to find a Reagan moment and being upstaged by Murtha..

Guess which will get most of the play tonight..

Dems are on the verge of figuring out how to be an effective opposition party…

Great!

When Roe goes, all that evaporates. No one will care about their opinions anymore. No more funds witll prop up FOTF or the (perpetually) Cocerned Women of America.

It’s Concerned Women for America. Ya gotta get the “for” in there — that way, anybody who disagrees isn’t “for” America, and you know what that means.

I don’t think, by the way, that overturning Roe will put these guys out of business. In some ways, it just ups the stakes — there will be state-by-state battles all across America on the issue of whether abortion will be legal, and those battles will be perpetual after Roe.

The real negative, for pro-lifers, is that those battles tilt to the pro-choice side. Most people want abortion to be legal. As long as the debate was about “partial-birth abortion”, and not the basic abortion right, the pro-life side makes headway. Change it to the fundamental issue, and the pro-choice side picks up steam — and the Democratic party along with it.

The demise of Roe will bring something like what we saw here in Ohio in 2004 — where the anti-gay marriage issue energized the whole religious right base and perhaps brought Bush a crucial victory. Only the energized folks will be the majority that wants abortion legal.

That’s why Republican strategists are scared of it.

fatbear — thanks — that is HUGE news.

Fitzgerald in Chicago today to announce the Hollinger-related indictment of Conrad Black – could’t happen to a nicer guy! Next up, Perle hopefully (and maybe Kissinger).

pdf Press Release

LARGE pdf Indictment

HAHAHAHA

Tweety interviewing Bob Bennet right now (judy Miller’s attorney).

Just slipped and called her Judy Woodward, after talking with Bennet about the Woodward news yesterday.

See this Billmon entry for the obvious, inspired and fablulous conflation of the names Judy Miller and Bob Woodward into “Judy Woodward.”

http://billmon.org/archives/002339.html

lgf–Thanks for the inspiration!

thank you rw cole for picking up on my post
and developing your ideas further into clear
manifesto statements. send them off to all
and everybody out there.

Very big news Pacha– thanks.

I continue to think that as many follow the very interesting and important legal war– the political war is being waged right before our eyes- and the goopers are getting the crap kicked out of em.

MURTHA SPEAKS: We have a crisis of confidence in the war. Read Congressman Murtha’s speech. (Hat tip: Rod.) He’s no MoveOn lefty. The president and vice-president are fighting back on the issue of their alleged deception before the war. As I have written here, I believe that the WMD intelligence fiasco was an honest and forgivable mistake, not a conspiracy or pre-meditated deception. The worst the administration was guilty of was occasional rhetorical excess in a very emotional period. But I do believe that the failure to prepare for the post-invasion phase, the far-too-late acknowledgment of the insurgency, the amateurism and pig-headedness of the early occupation, and the sanctioning of torture: all these required even those of us who believed in the war to call the administration on its incompetence and arrogance. What we need now is a very clear indication that our effort to train the Iraqi military is progressing, that the troops are well-equipped and cared for and that the political process isn’t degenerating into sectarianism. The fact that Bush’s and Cheney’s recent fight-back speeches were not about these vital matters is not a sign of their regaining strength. it’s a sign of their continuing and deepening vulnerability.

Andrew Sullivan

House Republicans continue to run from the president and the conservative leadership on todays’ domestic budget vote.

Hat tip to Think Progress via Atrios:

http://thinkprogress.org/2005/11/17/revolt/

Frist has a 23% JAR according to Harris

Hastert is ahead in the race to zero– currently boasting a 22% rating..

Funny as hell.

J i o: some links for my thoughts and related discussion of the isses raised in the NYT piece, and the news of the day yesterday:

http://www.haloscan.com/commen…..13/#165635

http://www.haloscan.com/commen…..13/#165684

http://www.haloscan.com/commen…..13/#165686

http://www.haloscan.com/commen…..13/#165689

http://www.haloscan.com/commen…..65/#165937

I hope that helps.

EPU — Would love to do one, if I could get more than 5 minutes to string together a thought today. Am dealing with an uncooperative toddler and a daddy who is out of town and no nap as yet. SIGH As soon as I can get a brain cell or two to rub together, I’ll put something up on the subject.

My opinion is that it isn’t too surprising that Dicky hasn’t lined up with everyone else to deny that he was Woody’s source. That isn’t his style. To stoop to actually answering any question that he doesn’t want to address is totally beneath him and will not dignify the question with an answer, irregardless of whether anyone thinks it might make him “look bad”. He just isn’t like that. Answering questions is for “ordinary people”.

I have thought for a long time that what most people want is a govt. that WORKS- a government that does what it is supposed to do- competently..

They want oversight from congress.

They want regulators who regulate- fairly and impartially.

They want protection agencies who protect.

They want a justice system that delivers justice.

They are not much impressed with wild theories and theoretical bullshit- and that’s all the goopers have delivered.

Competent govt. is winning issue.

Is there going to be a million junk-yard dog
march and gathering on the mall in Washington to celebrate the work of Fitzgerald and to call off the dogs of war.

Murtha is a true American hero.
Fuck Hastert! Abramoff has him compromised.

Abramoff money goes around, including to Democrats and Harry Reid, apparently:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200…..0bQ–

For the record, I’m a good-government type before I am a partisan, and I am unabashedly a partisan.

If any Dems are criminally liable, they should go down.

J i O

I think that Jane did a great job of analyzing that article last night- check it out below.

Clusterfuck and Ticky Dick in a race—to see who can get to zero Job Approval first

Ticky ahead by a whisker at the moment according to Harris- with a 30% rating compared to Clusterfuck’s 34%.

Come on Clusterfuck- don’t let the old guy beatcha!

EPU,

Check out the NYT here: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11…..nted=print

Many of your issues are written up, although perhaps not the way you’d like.

It’s a dense article worth dissecting, IMHO. Jane, Redd, Pach, rwcole…??

–

Reddhedd – I am taking my campaign that you address the various conspiracy issues from a prosecutorial/legal eagle perspective public. There seems to be the belief that a conspiracy can only exist if they all sat around a table and plotted together. That is not true, and it is really very easy to become a part of a conspiracy without being a big part of it at all. Bombarding you with emails would be impolite, but please, pretty please, with sugar on top.

That the MSM is reporting that Fitz is working with a GJ is significant. Whether it’s a “new” GJ or not doesn’t seem to me to be important. There have got to be a lot of nervous folks over in the WH, and amonst the Vast Rightwing Echochamber of Watercarriers.

Karen, in RE:

“What’s the problem? He apologized.”

What I haven’t seen Booby apologize for is running off his mouth to Larry King, Terri Gross, and 10 or 20 others about how this investigation was “gossip”, “would amount to nothing” and that Fitz was a “junkyard dog” all the while concealing that he was a deeply involved party, not a merely an allegedly knowledgeable commentator. For that he owes everyone and particularly Fitz a public apology.

Though Fitz may have already extracted a private revenge, snicker.

sonate: the other dirty secret is that the leaders of the snake handler groups (not the members) are also at best ambivalent about an overturn of Roe.

Their careers and livlihood$ have all been built on Roe. That issue has sent their kids to college, pays for their fancy meals and powers their political clout.

When Roe goes, all that evaporates. No one will care about their opinions anymore. No more funds witll prop up FOTF or the (perpetually) Cocerned Women of America.

These groups have been suffering from diminishing donations, as a group, anyway. They have tried to use the Gay Agenda as a new line of business, and it has helped, but it’s not quite the consistent gold mine that Roe has been, especially since America is generationally moving very quickly toward full gay equality.

Dennis-the-Menace Hastert is now saying that Murtha’s position is one of “waving the white flag of surrender to the terrorists.”

Moron.

—

I would give credit to Fitz for smoking out Booby (the lying Wingnut shiller needs a better nickname though).

I would give Fitz the benefit of the doubt that he knows there are a number of ways to smoke out information. One strategy is the detailed indictment. That would make people wonder what he, Fitz, really does know. And it is always better to buy early if you are dealing.

The second way, which I haven’t seen speculated about (might have been) is that Fitz thought that IF, and it is a debatable IF, Scooter put on a real defense, that he, Scooter, would lead Fitz to other important peices of the puzzle. My guess is is that it is Scooter putting on a real defense at the moment that led to Booby fearing discovery – particularly since Booby would know Scooter wasn’t the first, but more importantly b/c Scooter would know (which kind of proves a conspiracy don’t ya think). If Scooter is at the moment putting on a real defense, he will do a lot of Fitz’s work for him, and, happily, bring all his co-conspirators with him. Which also makes me think that sooner or later Scooter will flip – he gets no benefit of exposing everyone else as part of his real defense at this moment.

Does any of this help Scooter? No, and please stop fearing that somehow he, or any of them, are going to somehow get off.

First, Scooter is indicted for perjury, obstruction and false statement. Fitz specifically said in his press conference that the lack of cooperation and lies had impeded his investigation. It is as if Scooter is going to beg the judge to be lenient for killing his parents b/c he is now an orphan. (I think Swopa made this point).

Second, it seems like there really is more and more evidence Fitz is collecting that there really was a conspiracy or conspiracies (the outing and the cover-up). Of course we know there was one, but being able to prove it in a court of law requires more. Maybe the info is coming out slowly, but most prosecutors really are very patient people.

Side note: Chimpy’s fate is sealed – Worst President Ever. He can’t redeem himself on policy issues (as if there is any good news to report out of Iraq) until and unless he redeems himself on the trust/honesty issue. And that is just not going to happen – and no good news is going to change that. Republican shillers can shill all they want that he can recover – he can’t.

Go back to the top and read Beef again.

ahhhh, refreshing……..

Pachacutec: I agree. If Roe is overturned, the GOP shell game is over. The backlash against them would be devastating. The GOP does not want Roe overturned. They want Roe as a perpetual campaign issue that diverts attention from the fact that the GOP is playing Robin Hood in reverse with their fiscal policy.

By the way Redd, your pic of the Marvin Gaye LP cover is just great – a tribute to one of the greatest.

Thanks for that tip Pach. The video link at Americablog comes via Bradblog:

Rep Murtha Video

Just speculation- but I would bet that the burbs are more homogenous than the rest of america– that is- the burbs outside Atlanta aren’t a hell of a lot different from the burbs outside Philly..

If ya get em in one place- you’ve got a pretty good chance of baggin em all.

Excellent HuffPo comment…

Murtha, a Marine intelligence officer in Vietnam, angrily shot back at Cheney: “I like guys who’ve never been there that criticize us who’ve been there. I like that. I like guys who got five deferments and never been there and send people to war, and then don’t like to hear suggestions about what needs to be done.”

Woof, woof, grrrrr….

—

If the burbs go dem- as they did in Virginia– it’s good bye gooper revolution… Goopers will be riding the backs of a snakehandler mule and a few oligarchs in denial.. That’s all she wrote.

Over at E&P Bernstein complains of “piling on” poor Woodward.

http://www.editorandpublisher……1001523719

Pacha– yep- it’s about the burbs- and dems probably need to do some pretty hard thinkin pretty fast about how to rope em in. That’s the piece they’ve been missing lately..

Need some burby candidates and some burby issues.. See the new tax reform measure Wyden is passin around—

Creates a wedge issue between employees and investors– pretty damned smart!

Murtha is getting wide media play today.

Good summary at Salon.com:

An Iraq hawk says bring the troops home now

Pennsylvania Rep. Jack Murtha spent 37 years in the Marine Corps, rising to the rank of colonel and serving in combat in Vietnam while Dick Cheney was collecting deferments and tending to “other priorities” back home. As a member of Congress, he has been among the most hawkish of Democrats. When George W. Bush asked for authorization to go to war on Iraq in 2002, Murtha voted to give it to him.

Now, Murtha says, it is time for that war to end and for U.S. troops to come home. In an emotional speech during which he choked back tears, Murtha said today that the war is “not going as advertised.”

“It is a flawed policy wrapped in illusion,” Murtha said. “The American public is way ahead of us. The United States and Coalition troops have done all they can in Iraq, but it is time for a change in direction. Our military is suffering. The future of our country is at risk. We cannot continue on the present course. It is evident that continued military action in Iraq is not in the best interest of the United States of America, the Iraqi people or the Persian Gulf Region.”

Murtha said he has reached his conclusion after watching the war unfold over two-and-a-half years, touring Iraq recently, and visiting almost weekly with wounded soldiers at Walter Reed. He says that he understands now that, while U.S. troops have done everything that has been asked of them, they are now serving as a target in Iraq, and their continued presence is making matters worse. In legislation he’s introducing today, Murtha calls on Congress to put an end to troop deployments in Iraq and to redeploy forces already there “at the earliest practicable date.” Murtha told reporters that it’s reasonable to expect most U.S. troops to be out of Iraq within six months.

“This war needs to be personalized,” Murtha said. “Because we in Congress are charged with sending our sons and daughters into battle, it is our responsibility, our obligation to speak out for them. ThatÂ’s why I am speaking out. Our military has done everything that has been asked of them. The U.S. cannot accomplish anything further in Iraq militarily. It is time to bring them home.”

– Tim Grieve

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In all the talk about the Plame-leak story, has everybody forgotten Elliott Abrams?

I donÂ’t want to add to the clutter of information coming at us fast and furious, but couldnÂ’t resist recalling this from Alterman two years ago:

“Finally, regarding the identity of the leakers–well, yes, Karl Rove is obviously a top suspect, given both his power and modus operandi. Ditto Dick Cheney’s Rasputin, I. Lewis Libby. But what about Elliott Abrams? A convicted liar and longtime ally of Novak whiling away his time inside the National Security Council, he has played a much larger role in these war plans–and the battles that have accompanied them–than so far has been recognized by the media. Abrams has quite legalistically denied any role in “leaking classified information,” according to White House press secretary Scott McClellan. But the last time Abrams pretended ignorance, he was lying. When caught, he found himself celebrated by Novak, pardoned by Bush’s daddy and given a spanking new career by Bush himself. I think he knows the drill by now.”

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20031103/alterman

rwcole, as I said yesterday, I got some emails from friends before the story broke about Woodward, that Fitz and his assoc. were before an alrready sitting GJ yesterday. Possibly presenting this info, or getting them up to speed. I hear they meet again tomm.

I forgot to link the article I was just discussing:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..02088.html

OT: I had not caught this earlier.

Tom Davis, (R-Virginia), is sounding out themes that might allow some of Republicans to oppose the Alito nomination if he is seen as anti-abortion.

Davis is not fool. he has known the game for years: play off the resentments of the fundamentalists for political power but don’t give them what they want, or it’s political suicide.

He also knows that the president of election day poison for Republicans now, too toxic for words. These guys have to run from the president to survive. After all, he’s just witnessed the election of a rather progressive Democrat as governor of his state. They can smell the suburbs already slipping away, and if Roe gets overturned, The Corrupt Republican Shell Game is up.

rwcole,

I liked it too: http://www.haloscan.com/commen…..20/#166034

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Throw DOWN, Mr. Murtha. Bless you.

Go fuck yourself, Dick Cheney.

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Sorry, I got the AP video file from the front page at NYT.

The fact that someone at WaPo could ask you “What’s the problem?” is the problem.

By the way, if you can link to the streaming video of Murtha today, do it.

It’s much more powerful than the transcript.

Americablog has a link, and there’s an AP video report linked at WaPo.

percy,

Thanks for the extra flagging of KagroX’s excellent posting at The Next Hurrah found here: http://thenexthurrah.typepad.c……html#more

I really think it has the potential of being a genuine “Walter Cronkite moment”.

Murtha’s a keystone in the Wall of War, and not only has he cracked, he’s completely crumbled, to use a tried and true FDL metaphor.

–

Notice that Clusterfuck was at 50% for the election and has cratered ever since. Buyer’s remorse set in early.

The Harris Poll. Nov. 8-13, 2005. N=1,011 adults nationwide. MoE ± 3.

.

“How would you rate the job President George W. Bush is doing as president: excellent, pretty good, only fair, or poor?”
.

Excellent/
Pretty Good
Only Fair/
Poor
Unsure/
Refused

%
%
%

11/8-13/05 34 65 1
8/9-16/05 40 58 2
6/7-12/05 45 55 –
4/5-10/05 44 56 –
2/8-13/05 48 51 1
11/9-14/04 50 49 1

Latest Harris Poll results just being put up on Pollingreport.com

34% Job Approval— that’s bad–Oh my– that’s VERY bad.

You can see from the numbers above how the mighty has fallen in recent months– steady decline!

How low can he go?

I think he can get to 25% if he puts his “mind” to it.

“What’s the problem? He apologized.” What an attitude.

Karen, doesn’t that remind you of Bush’s response to Pelosi, “What went wrong last week?”. (Katrina)

Representative John Murtha said the Iraq campaign is “a flawed policy wrapped in illusion” and called for “the immediate redeployment of American forces

“Flawed policy wrapped in an Illusion”

Not bad- I like it!

Meanwhile on planet Earth…

Outside the US the use of white phos is a war crime, no matter who it’s used against…(maybe we’re just jaded since we know Saddam’s chem weapons came from us originally anyhow)

Dems AND now Goopers calling for immediate withdrawl as another 10 US troops die in two days…

Senior admin officials deny they were Woodward’s source…except Vice…

Abramoff given +$800k to GOPers…

Major shit-storm gearing up that goes way beyond our preoccupation with Fitz GJ…but everything’s connected to everything and the BushCo hubris is finally catching up. The harder they come, the harder they fall….

Just talked to the managing editor’s office at WaPo, expressing my disgust and dismay over the Boobie issue. I was told, “What’s the problem? He apologized.” What an attitude. Woodward apparently answers to no one at WaPo and is running wild with no supervision. What a fun position Woodward has: make big bucks, write books on company time, and do anything he feels like doing, and his employer sanctions it while slipping dollar bills into his tighty-whiteys.

Speaking of Iraq, Chalabi schemes on…

“An unrepentant Ahmad Chalabi celebrates his return with his neocon pals”

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10…../newsweek/

“…for ChalabiÂ’s Washington supporters, his return to the capital heading into the Dec. 15 election felt like sweet vindication. Many of these hawks had urged the Bush administration to install Chalabi quickly after the March 2003 invasion so that U.S. forces could depart and the time of occupation could be minimized. That advice was rejected, and for more than a year Chalabi was persona non grata, having earned the enmity of Iraq civil administrator L. Paul Bremer III. Last year, after Chalabi was accused of revealing to the Iranians that Americans were eavesdropping on their conversations (a charge he adamantly denies), Chalabi and the INC were all but radioactive in Washington. And in his forthcoming memoirs, Bremer is expected to criticize Chalabi and the Pentagon for interfering with his efforts to set up a broadly based, fully constitutional government.

But ChalabiÂ’s neoconservative supporters, like Perle, argue that it was Bremer himself who botched things. The way to avoid the chaos and bloodshed of the last two years was to have set up an interim Iraqi government led by Chalabi right away, they say…”

Yep. For some Chalabi/Bremer context, see Naomi Klein’s”Baghdad Year Zero”

http://www.harpers.org/BaghdadYearZero.html

Woof, woof

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percy, everything is becoming so Watergate retro by the day we may as well back order some Jiffy Pop. :)

Mitch2k2 now says Fitz using existing GJ not empaneling new one.

Update [2005-11-17 13:24:29 by mitch2k2]: #2 Have confirmed with one of the wiiters of the piece that the grand jury in question is indeed one that’s already in existence.

Sorry for any confusion. Still a scoop that he’s fixing to present again. May indicate new indictments in the wings.

No matter how you read this, it is saying the junkyard dog ain’t done growling.

Here is the WSJ article

WSJ(11/17) UPDATE: Woodward May Alter CIA-Leak Case

(From THE WALL STREET JOURNAL)
By Anne Marie Squeo and John D. Mckinnon
WASHINGTON — This week’s testimony by Washington Post assistant managing
editor Bob Woodward in the CIA-leak investigation raises the prospect of
additional Bush-administration officials becoming entangled in the two-year
probe.
At the same time, Mr. Woodward’s involvement muddies Special Prosecutor
Patrick Fitzgerald’s case against I. Lewis Libby, the vice president’s former
chief of staff and the only official indicted so far.
Mr. Woodward was interviewed for more than two hours on Monday by Mr.
Fitzgerald about interviews he conducted with three current and former
Bush-administration officials in June 2003.
One of those officials, whom Mr. Woodward wouldn’t identify, told the
journalist in mid-June 2003 that the wife of former Ambassador Joseph Wilson
was a Central Intelligence Agency analyst working on weapons of mass
destruction. That means Mr. Woodward learned from an administration official
other than Mr. Libby that Valerie Plame, Mr. Wilson’s wife, worked for the CIA
earlier than any other journalist.
Mr. Woodward yesterday in an interview said the confidential source who
first told him of Ms. Plame has allowed him to tell Mr. Fitzgerald but has
refused to give Mr. Woodward permission to disclose his identity publicly.
In addition to the unidentified source, Mr. Woodward was quizzed about a
June 20, 2003, interview he conducted with Andy Card, the White House chief of
staff, and other conversations with Mr. Libby. Mr. Woodward said he has “no
recollection” of discussing Ms. Plame with either Messrs. Card or Libby and
doesn’t have corroborating evidence — notes or tape — to suggest otherwise.
But he added that he believes the list of questions he brought to interview
both men included the phrase “Joe Wilson’s wife.” Mr. Woodward doesn’t say
whether any government official specifically identified Mr. Wilson’s wife by
name.
Mr. Wilson, Ms. Plame’s husband, publicly criticized the administration on
July 6, 2003, for twisting intelligence to justify the war in Iraq. The
disclosure of his wife’s identity soon thereafter in a column by Robert Novak
prompted the investigation. Intentionally disclosing the identity of a covert
agent can be a crime under a 1982 law.
Mr. Card’s possible involvement in the investigation — perhaps as an
innocent witness — is bad news for the White House, which has been working
assiduously to change the subject from the leak investigation to policy issues
and to Mr. Bush’s trip to Asia.
The White House now must brace itself for the possibility that Mr.
Fitzgerald’s probe, far from winding down, may have just gotten a second wind.
Prosecutors deposed Mr. Woodward in anticipation of presenting that evidence
to a new grand jury, according to a person familiar with the situation. The
one that indicted Mr. Libby expired on Oct. 28. That could require that Mr.
Card and the unnamed official be called to testify about their conversations
with Mr. Woodward. A White House spokeswoman declined to comment.
The best possible scenario for the White House is that Mr. Woodward’s source
no longer works for the administration. In an interview yesterday, Mr.
Woodward said he hopes to be able to identify the as-yet-unnamed source soon,
but offered no time frame for doing so. He declined to say whether that source
remains in the government. It is also possible that the source for Messrs.
Woodward and Novak is the same person, which might explain why Mr. Novak
hasn’t identified his source. Mr. Novak has described this person as “no
partisan gunslinger,” leading many to suggest that the person didn’t work at
the White House but rather at another agency such as the State Department.
Senior State Department officials, as Mr. Libby’s indictment shows, were
well-versed in the details of Mr. Wilson, his trip to Niger to investigate
Iraqi weapons claims, and his wife’s employment at the CIA.
Also hanging over the White House is the possibility that Karl Rove, the
deputy White House chief of staff, could be indicted. Mr. Rove has testified
four times before the grand jury and remains under investigation. Vice
President Dick Cheney is embroiled in the probe, mentioned in Mr. Libby’s
indictment as telling his former aide that Ms. Plame worked at the CIA’s
counterproliferation division. And Mr. Woodward’s statement suggests that he
planned to ask Mr. Cheney about Mr. Wilson’s fact-finding on Iraqi weapons
activity, and possibly planned to ask about Mr. Wilson’s wife as well.
In remarks scheduled for delivery last night, Mr. Cheney offered one of the
administration’s most aggressive counterattacks yet on the issue of White
House use of intelligence in the run-up to the war. He charged Democrats with
leveling “one of the most dishonest and reprehensible charges ever aired in
this city” in accusing the administration of misleading Americans.
The involvement of Mr. Woodward could complicate Mr. Fitzgerald’s case
against Mr. Libby. While Mr. Libby has been indicted on narrow charges related
to lying, Mr. Fitzgerald has described the White House aide as the first
government official known to have told a reporter about Ms. Plame’s identity.
Mr. Woodward now says he was told that information earlier, but he won’t
identify the official who told him or whether the person still works in the
administration.
“Woodward’s disclosures are a bombshell to Mr. Fitzgerald’s case,” said Ted
Wells, an attorney for Mr. Libby. The disclosure that Mr. Woodward had two
conversations with Mr. Libby, on June 23 and June 27, 2003, and “that Mr.
Libby did not mention Wilson’s wife undermines Mr. Fitzgerald’s key theme that
Mr. Libby was involved in a scheme to discredit Wilson by telling reporters
about Wilson’s wife’s employment at the CIA.”
To be sure, Mr. Libby isn’t charged with illegally leaking the name of a
covert agent, but rather with lying to federal investigators and the grand
jury, as well as obstructing justice, amid the investigation of that leak. But
criminal-defense attorneys and former prosecutors have said such cases, where
the crime is lying about something that turns out not to be a crime, often are
difficult to win with jurors.
In addition, Mr. Woodward’s problems recollecting discussions in this case
allow defense attorneys to raise doubts about whether differences in Mr.
Libby’s testimony from those of other reporters, such as Time magazine’s
Matthew Cooper, are not just the effect of a faulty memory.
Mr. Libby and his legal team were at the federal courthouse in Washington
yesterday, reviewing documents in the case in what is known as a Secure
Compartmentalized Information Facility, or SCIF, a room used by the Justice
Department to handle classified information.
A spokesman for Mr. Fitzgerald declined to comment or make Mr. Fitzgerald
available to comment. According to Mr. Woodward, Mr. Fitzgerald contacted him
on Nov. 3 about his conversations after his original source contacted the
prosecutor. Mark Corallo, a spokesman for Mr. Rove, said that his client “had
no conversations with Mr. Woodward regarding Mr. Wilson’s wife.”
Separately, a federal judge in Washington found Washington Post reporter
Walter Pincus in contempt, saying he must reveal his government sources for
articles published in 1999 about the criminal investigation of scientist Wen
Ho Lee, relying on anonymous sources. Mr. Lee is seeking their identity for a
suit against the government. U.S. District Judge Rosemary Collyer said Mr.
Pincus must contact his sources to inform them of the order in case they wish
to release him from his pledge.

(END) Dow Jones Newswires
11-16-05 2243ET
Copyright (c) 2005 Dow Jones & Company, Inc.

Whether it’s a new GJ- an old GJ- or a borrowed or blue GJ– the important thing is for reporters to find out WHAT gj it is so that they can determine it’s schedule and stake it out.

We wanna know who’s comin an goin– don’t we?

http:// thenexthurrah.typepad.com…smic_.html#more

J i O’s nexthurrah link (from 10:08 on the previous Piling on Booby post) re: Congressman Murtha is a must-read. Teasers:

“Murtha’s a former Marine, and usually a reliably conservative Democratic vote on matters of defense and foreign policy, so for him to change his mind on a war he originally supported is a big deal. To step out in front of a microphone and take the lead on redirecting Democratic policy on it is nothing less than earth-shattering.”

From the Murtha transcript:

“The war in Iraq is not going as advertised…”

“The main reason given for war has been discredited…”

“It was a US intelligence failure, and it was a failure in how the intelligence was used…”

“What demoralizes [our troops] is not the criticism” but the lack of a plan to win the peace.

“We must be prepared, the war in Iraq has caused huge shortfalls in our bases at home…”

“The burden of this war has not been shared equally…”

“I just got back from Iraq and looked at the last report [from Rumsfeld]… unemployment is 60%… clean water is scarce… and most importantly, incidents have increased from 150 per week to 700 in the last years… since Abu Ghraib American casualties have doubled…”

“The presence of US troops in Iraq is impeding this progress…”

The article reports: “At times during his remarks to reporters, the decorated Vietnam War veteran and former Marine was choking back tears.”

Another Dem with huevos.

OT, but wanted all of you to know that Rep. Dennis Hastert, IL, Speaker of the House, is still blocking the McCain anti-torture amendment/bill vote in the House. (Amendment No. 1997 to H.R. 2863, Dept. of Defense Appropriations Act, 2006). Hastert, a former wrestling coach in Chicago suburbia, is blocking this amendment at the behest of Big Time.

Hastert’s Washington phone number is 202-225-2976 and the fax is 202-225-0697.

GJ #2. Not remotely a surprise, given Fitz’s prosecutorial history. Lay in more popcorn.

The revelation- if that’s what it is- about a new Grand Jury is interesting… The fact that it’s a NEW grand jury doesn’t- I guess- mean that it’s a DEDICATED grand jury- a grand jury that Fitz alone is using…

Wonder if Fitz will comment on it- can’t see why he couldn’t.

Could a reporter weigh in here on this issue:

Why is it neither Woodward nor Miller took the bait on the Plame issue? Yesterday on Hardball, Richard Cohen was going on about the gossipy nature of this leak, that it is just business-as-usual character assassination in Washington. If that is the case, why was it only Novak who printed a story?

Nixon has to be rolling over in his grave pissing himself with laughter.

IÂ’m sorry Bob, but for a guy that doesnÂ’t even have a firecracker, thereÂ’s nothing like shoving a cherry bomb up your own frickin ass and lighting the fuse. I guess hunkering down more than usual includes all those guest appearances on every major news show lip syncing RoveÂ’s talking points. YouÂ’re nothing but a goofy friggin sock puppet made from a discarded Bush codpiece.

I guess your big friggin worry was the junkyard dog lifting your rock and the real Boob Woodward crawling out from under. Well dumb ass, your fear has been realized. You are the laughing stock of the nation and to tell the truth it didnÂ’t even take Kitty Carlisle to figure it the hell out. You make Baghdad Bob look Pulitzer. About the only thing youÂ’re good for is authoring all your stupid ass gag gifts.

At this point, divulging the source of your fricken knee pads wouldnÂ’t compromise any confidentiality. You can buy the stinkin things at Wal-Mart for cryin out loud. A step up in credibility would be changing your goofy assed tale from GrimmÂ’s. to Mother Goose. Unfortunately, even if you switch to AesopÂ’s there would be absolutely no friggin moral to your sorry ass story.