Ooooh, John Dean has a barn-burner of a column up, and there ain’t no fat lady singing, that’s for sure. Gee thee behind me, Dick Cheney:
Having read the indictment against Libby, I am inclined to believe more will be issued. In fact, I will be stunned if no one else is indicted.Indeed, when one studies the indictment, and carefully reads the transcript of the press conference, it appears Libby’s saga may be only Act Two in a three-act play. And in my view, the person who should be tossing and turning at night, in anticipation of the last act, is the Vice President of the United States, Richard B. Cheney.
Dean goes on to note, as Billmon has, that Fitzgerald said a whole lot more in the indictment than he had to, and took great pains to delve into the statutes under which Libby is not charged.
Count One, paragraph 1(b) is particularly revealing. Its first sentence establishes that Libby had security clearances giving him access to classified information. Then 1(b) goes on to state: “As a person with such clearances, LIBBY was obligated by applicable laws and regulations, including Title 18, United States Code, Section 793, and Executive Order 12958 (as modified by Executive Order13292), not to disclose classified information to persons not authorized to receive such information, and otherwise to exercise proper care to safeguard classified information against unauthorized disclosure.” (The section also goes on to stress that Libby executed, on January 23, 2001, an agreement indicating understanding that he was receiving classified information, the disclosure of which could bring penalties.)What is Title 18, United States Code, Section 793? It’s the Espionage Act – a broad, longstanding part of the criminal code. (my emphasis)
Espionage, bitches, espionage!
Fitzgerald is a man who speaks very carefully. And like Dean, I went back and read very slooooowly the transcript of his press conference about invoking the Espionage Act. Specifically the Espionage Act. As Fitzgerald said:
We have not charged him with [that] crime. I’m not making an allegation that he violated [the Espionage Act]. What I’m simply saying is one of the harms in obstruction is that you don’t have a clear view of what should be done. And that’s why people ought to walk in, go into the grand jury, you’re going to take an oath, tell us the who, what, when, where and why — straight.
Fitzgerald can’t do his job because Libby is lying to him. And once again as Dean noted on Countdown last week, he says Libby is acting as a firewall to Cheney:
[I]n Fitzgerald’s words, Libby’s story was that when Libby “passed the information on to reporters Cooper and Miller late in the week, he passed it on thinking it was just information he received from reporters; that he told reporters that, in fact, he didn’t even know if it were true. He was just passing gossip from one reporter to another at the long end of a chain of phone calls.”This story is, of course, a lie, but it was a clever one on Libby’s part.
It protects Cheney because it suggests that Cheney’s disclosure to Libby was causally separate from Libby’s later, potentially Espionage-Act-violating disclosure to the press. Thus, it also denies any possible conspiracy between Cheney and Libby.
And it protects Libby himself – by suggesting that since he believed he was getting information from reporters, not indirectly from the CIA, he may not have had have the state of mind necessary to violate the Espionage Act.
Thus, from the outset of the investigation, Libby has been Dick Cheney’s firewall. And it appears that Fitzgerald is actively trying to penetrate that firewall.
Dean goes on to speculate, and I agree, that Fitzgearld is trying to flip Libby, and thinks he is unlikely to do so:
Neither Cheney nor Libby (I believe) will be so foolish as to crack a deal. And Libby probably (and no doubt correctly) assumes that Cheney – a former boss with whom he has a close relationship — will (at the right time and place) help Libby out, either with a pardon or financially, if necessary. Libby’s goal, meanwhile, will be to stall going to trial as long as possible, so as not to hurt Republicans’ showing in the 2006 elections.So if Libby can take the heat for a time, he and his former boss (and friend) may get through this. But should Republicans lose control of the Senate (where they are blocking all oversight of this administration), I predict Cheney will resign “for health reasons.”
I’m not sure I’m with Dean on this last one. As long as Libby stalls a trial, it stays in the headlines. The public hunger for answers will grow ravenous. The White House will have to play Pin It All On Scooter, which his attorneys will be forced to defend in the court of public opinion. And the press, against whom Libby will have to wage his war (it’s going to be his story vs. those of Matthews, Cooper, Miller et. al.) is going to turn hostile.
The stage is set for a circular firing squad.
And then there’s the yet-to-be-played-out Karl Rove saga. BushCo. would love to see Scooter out of the headlines as quickly as possible so they could get back to feeding like pigs at the public trough. A few lavishly expensive photo-ops are not going to steal the headlines back from this one any time soon.
(graphic courtesy of Monk)




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Need legal — or trial process — matter resolved.
I am reminded that it is always the prosecution that opens up the areas where questioning or evidence is relevant and introduced.
Fitzgerald’s case is a thin spare case. Conviction will depend less on any big picture, more on the answer to the question “Did you lie to this here FBI Guy or Gal?” Thus it will be — what did you say in the course of your interview and what witnesses and documentary material needs to be exhibited to prove a knowing lie. Beyond that the Posecution really doesn’t need to go — and in fact should not as conviction is more certain if it is kept simple and pretty stupid.
Am I right about this? If so, requesting reams of classified stuff may not be at all useful or even allowed if the Judge reles it is unrelated to the charge. All of Fitzgerald’s charges are like this, they are lies to the GJ and to the FBI.
Maybe one of the gems of Fitzgerald’s case is that it is so simplified, it may try quickly, and the “discovery” will be limited.
More Dems working for Impeachment. Sen. Reid has action items on his site. Please thank Rep. Hinchey, Nadler and McKinney who did call for Impeachment over two months ago but it was stricken from the Congressional Record. Bellaciao printed McKinney’s speech which even mentioned MK-ULTRA in connection with what was and is happening in NOLA. Are many of the Katrina survivors still behind fences with armed military guards in states far away? Who is following up?
Saturday, Oct. 22, 2005 11:40 p.m. EDT
Dems Tap Patrick Fitzgerald for Impeachment Probe
Democrats on the House Judiciary Committee are so pleased with reports that Leakgate prosecutor Patrick
Fitzgerald is about to indict senior White House officials that they want him to lead an impeachment
investigation into whether President Bush lied to Congress about Iraq’s weapons of mass destruction.
“The CIA leak issue is only the tip of the iceberg,” House Judiciary Democrat Jerrold Nadler complains in
a message posted to his web site.
In a letter asking the Justice Department to expand the scope of Fitzgerald’s investigation, Nadler says:
“We now have reason to believe that high crimes may have been committed at the highest level [and] wrongdoing that may have led us to war and imperiled our national security.”
If there is evidence that Bush or Cheney authorized aides to deliberately mislead lawmakers, Nadler told Congressional Quarterly: “That would be an impeachable offense.’”
The Manhattan Democrat is asking Acting Deputy Attorney General Robert McCallum to direct Fitzgerald to probe efforts by the White House to discredit critics of the Iraq war like former Ambassador Joe Wilson. Nadler wants Fitzgerald to determine whether attacks on Wilson were part of a “broader conspiracy knowingly to mislead Congress into authorizing a war.”
Even before leaks from Fitzgerald’s investigation indicated he planned indictments, Rep. Maurice Hinchey let slip the Democrats’ plan to impeach Bush for alleged Iraq war lies.
In quotes picked up by the Ithaca Journal, Hinchey said in August: “My greatest hope is that all of these things will be revealed, they will be revealed in a very direct and legal context, and that in 2006 a Democratic majority will be elected to the House of Representatives, and in February of [2007] impeachment proceedings will begin.”
Editor’s note:
Nadler: Fitzgerald Must Broaden Investigation “Did the Bush Administration deliberately mislead Congress about the war?
WASHINGTON, D.C. – In light of recent developments in the CIA leak investigation and other recent revelations, Congressman Jerrold Nadler today called for Special Counsel Patrick Fitzgerald to expand his
investigation to include a criminal investigation to examine whether the President, the Vice President, and members of the White House Iraq Group conspired to deliberately deceive Congress into authorizing the
war in Iraq.
more on their sites!
Link from Democratic Underground:
Kucinich Demands IG Investigation Into FBI’s Handling Of Investigation Int
http://www.commondreams.org/news2005/1104-08.htm
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
NOVEMBER 4, 2005
4:26 PM
CONTACT: Congressman Dennis Kucinich
Doug Gordon (202) 225-5871(o); (202) 494-5141(c)
Kucinich Demands IG Investigation Into FBI’s Handling Of Investigation Into Forged Niger Documents
FBI Drops Investigation Just As Italians Make A Potential Break In The Case; Kucinich Sends Department Of Justice A Letter Demanding Investigation
WASHINGTON – November 4 – Congressman Dennis J. Kucinich (D-OH) today sent a letter to the
Department of Justice Inspector General (IG), Glenn A. Fine, demanding an IG investigation of the FBI’s handling of the situation.
The letter, sent today, states:
Dear Inspector General Fine:
I am greatly dismayed to learn that without answering any of the key questions pertaining to the forgeries
known as the Niger-Iraq uranium documents, the F.B.I. has closed its two-year investigation.
Firstly, while the Italian investigation has identified Mr. Rocco Martino, an occasional informant, as the distributor of the forgeries, the F.B.I. has decided to close its investigation without determining who authored the forgeries. What basis did the F.B.I. have to end its investigation with the author of the forgeries still at large?
Secondly, while the F.B.I. closed its investigation based on its conclusion that Mr. Martino distributed the forgeries for personal profit, it is dismaying that the F.B.I. ended its investigation without determining who compensated Mr. Martino.
It is further disturbing that based on evidence of official Italian cooperation with the F.B.I.’s investigation, the F.B.I. closed its own investigation because it concluded that the government of Italy had not sought to manipulate U.S. foreign policy with the creation and dissemination of forgeries.
It is nearly unbelievable that the FBI is satisfied with the non-finding that the Italian government had no responsibility in manipulating intelligence to influence U.S. foreign policy. What about the more likely scenario of manipulation by Americans, Iraqi nationals or combination of both and/or rogue elements within the U.S. intelligence?
more… Please thank Kucinich and other Dems or Repubs when they do the right thing – Mary Landrieu voted against the poor and Chaffee, Snow and a few others voted against the tax cuts to feed children. KOS has list in main story today by Hunter.
The press..” is going to turn hostile”.
Maybe. I suppose that point of view boils down to the definition of the term.
By my lights, they need do no such thing to properly chronicle the breathtaking implications of this man’s legal jeopardy.
They need only present the facts of the case, in the most even handed manner as is humanly possible. His story tells itself, and requires no embellishment.
The second line of “reasoning” (I hate to call it that) is that it was all the CIA’s fault, that it was THEIR responsibility to keep their agent undercover, and it was all Ms. Wilson’s fault for sending her husband on a very visable mission abroad. Right….
Oh, it gets better. Some of them are now a third tier that says Valerie’s status as NOC was MIS-classified.
I shit you not.
If you don’t mind needing a bottle of brain bleach afterwards, take a gander at Tom Maguire’s comments sections attached to Plame posts. When the other straws catch fire in their hands, this is the one they’ll all start grasping.
rw cole: about the psychological war being waged on Libby, it helps that these good ol’ boys are already paranoid. They exist in the country club version of Spy vs. Spy and imagine that Graham Greene was writing about them. They are full of self-congratulation for their oh-so-clever strategies. They think the rest of us are all mean and stupid and dangerous and needing to be put down.
Kinda gives Fitz the edge, dontcha think?
Do you know how I KNOW that BushCo. knew Iraq had NO WMD? Because we invaded Iraq. Schoolyard bullies NEVER pick on anyone who can fight back. They are not brave and strong. They are frightened and weak. Every single move BushCo. has made for this nation has been the move of a weak, small nation, NOT of a large, strong one.
Libby is a member of BushCo. He lies to get out of trouble. He’s a coward. Now he’s at home, cornered. Caught. What do craven bullies do when they’re caught?
I think it will get very interesting if there is a trial and Libby’s defense team has to impeach Cheney’s testimony to save their man. Now of course, Libby may not let them do that, knowing that as you suggest, there is a pardon awaiting him, but if they are allowed to do it, as would normally be the case and if they try to get reporters’ notes and phone logs which they will be loathe to give up, the court battles could go on forever. Dershowitz over at Huffington seems to think that the tale will be told in whether or not Fitzgerald has control of the classified documents he needs to prove his case against Libby. He thinks the White House may try to take control and get the case thrown out after the resulting impass.
Ok. So I read the John Dean piece, and I also read one by Derchowitz over at the Huff Po.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/…..10113.html
“So hereÂ’s my prediction about how the Scooter Libby case will go down. His two new lawyers (both of whom are tough, experienced and first rate) will demand every bit of classified information arguably relevant to his defense. The independent prosecutor will seek to turn the material over, because he knows that unless they are turned over, the judge may well dismiss the charges.
But the intelligence agencies will veto the independent prosecutorÂ’s decision, claiming that disclosure of the requested classified material would endanger national security.
The question will then be posed quite starkly: who makes the final decision about whether to disclose such material? Does the independent prosecutor have final authority? Or do the intelligence branches have final authority? If the latter, will they be beholden to the White House? If so, will the White House use its power to try to get the charges against Libby dismissed by refusing the prosecutorÂ’s request to turn over the classified material, even if it is not really confidential? “
In considering both opinions on how Libby and Cheney will skate on this, I found one element conspicuously absent. Patrick Fitzgerald. Both positions assume that he is just a new kid onthe block, wet behaind the ears, not in possession of the faculties necessary to play in the Big Leagues, (here we go with the baseball analogy, but Fitz started it!)
If you don’t think that Fitz hasn’t taken all of these possibilities into his calculations and prepared contingencies to combat them, I’ve got this bridge …..
Thanks all for such thought- provoking comments, which I can’t add much to…
Pachacutec– your typos often have the ring of truth! Kinda remind me of Mrs. Malaprop. I loved the uncorrected version of your post on an earlier thread: “Bush is already getting advice on how to restore his credinility…”
http://www.haloscan.com/commen…..35/#155064
Credinility… let’s push that one for a new Webster’s entry… Bush certainly has credi”nil”ity! Let’s work to make sure Bush gets into even more negative numbers, trying to regain his “credinility”!
Thanks Me for all of the links for writing.
Part of my own campaign has been to join online polls. Bush is delusional, as Para pointed out more eloquently, but I can’t believe the impact of the numbers escape him altogether (though I’m sure numbers escape him, in a major way). I love filling out the polls that I’m sent, which often ask questions about Bush. It does my Schaudenfraude good to click the negatives on Bush. Here are links for joining the ones I”ve found, for anyone else so inclined.
http://www.harrisinteractive.com/
http://www.zogby.com/onlinepolls/index.cfm
And, if anyone can suggest others, thanks in advance.
-
No Colleen it takes arrogance. ;)
Talk about a rock and a hard place.
I hate to say this, but Bush going to the summit in Argentina takes balls!
rwcole –
I like how you think. :-)
Sounds perfectly plausible to me. Poor Scooter.
Since it’s a slow news day, let’s spend a few minutes thinking about this case from Fitz’s point of view.
Let’s suppose that what he really wants is Cheney and a piece of the shrubbery if he can get it.
Let’s also suppose that the only door to Cheney is through Libby.
What’s the strategy to squeeze Libby enough to get him to squeal like a stuck pig?
You aren’t going to break him down all at once- he identifies too much with the regime- he sees himself as Cheney’s COO- all of his psychology is built around this identity.
The task is psychological- not strictly legal- and it will take a long time- at least six months.
You start by isolating him- get him out of the environment where he feels powerful and protected.
The first indictment accomplished that. Now he’s at home. He has no idea what people are doing or saying back in the White House. He has lots of time to think about what everyone else involved in this case is doing. He’s got plenty of time to think about his political enemies- who are likely legion- and what they could do to undermine him. He gets lonely and afraid. He loses his identity.
Next, you let a few cats out of the bag. You have already made it clear in your indictment that you have 90% of what you need to go after a bigger conspiracy charge.
You then start interviewing some people who could only be of interest if you were trying to nail down the larger charge. You make it appear that there may be some flipping going on- of course you can’t and won’t comment on any of this- but let the press speculate- and let Libby sit at home sweating as he sees the possibility of being sold down the river by those he most trusted. This process goes on for a couple of months- and the press plays “speculation” every time they hear about one of the high level interviews.
Defense lawyers come out after the interviews and say that their client had nothing of importance to say- but you- Libby- are a lawyer- and you know that what defense attorneys say is usually bull shit. Your time between toilet breaks gets shorter and shorter and you begin to drive yourself nuts with the possibilities.
Finally you interview Cheney himself. The word gets out- same BS with the defense attorneys- but Libby is now not so certain that you actually NEED him to make the case- and he now begins to add up the potential years that he may be facing- the fact that his protector may not always be there to protect him- and that his protector might actually throw him under the train to save his own sorry ass.
Now he’s ready.
At this point- Fitzy comes out with the big indictment- naming Cheney (and maybe Clusterfuck as an unindicted co-conspirator). No one knows just how much evidence he has- but Scooter knows that the time for deal making is about to go away.
At this point- the bottom falls out- and Libby is ready to sing like a diva?
170posts….man, you guys are smokin’
I need to go out. Carry on without me folks, and sorry if I am leaving questions hanging.
rwcole: I agree with you. Nice comments.
EPU: I don;t know what his floor is. I thought he had reached it in the low 40’s, and he fooled me.
Here’s the wild card: his core supporters were more “identity” based than politics or policy based. They liked George because they felt he was like them: religious, imperfect, saved, not an elite smart guy. . . “real folks.” Seeing George on top of the world made them feel better about themselves.
But George is becoming toxic in the public mind in a way that I never anticipated. It’s happening very fast. And the nature of this is that momentum in the toxic direction makes his core identity based supporters wanbt to deny him.
It’s like junior high: when your best friend is no longer cool, you don’t want to be seen with him. His base is running from him faster and in greater numbers than I ever imagined likely or possible.
I have no idea what the floor is, and I hesitate to guess. I can’t imagine it falling as far as 30%, but then I never thought it would fall below 42%. At the very least, you can get waves of contrarian sympathizers who might rally to him as a persecuted bad boy, but that essentially means he has come to symbolize a new identity to a new population segment.
Bottom line: I have no clue.
CNN reporting:
9th day of rioting and Paris still burning.
Chavez and Castro are Bush’s rioting problem while in Argentina.
President of Argentina did not allow press questions after meeting, USA had promised press conference for us here at home. (heh)
Congress outraged over “abuse of our Constitution” .. of none other than illegal aliens having babies here. ( wtf? oh it’s being abused on many levels alright, starting with the Supremes on down)
You Guys are great.
I am obsessed, also, with BBD-Bringing Busco Down.
My F5 button is worn smooth due to firedoglake.
I think Fitz went for the surgical strike. This indictment is simple and clear.
Thus insuring a quick trial. Or at least minimal bullshit from the lawyers.
Shit, Otis — I’m glad Libby didn’t hire you to defend him! How about coming up with a few ideas for Fitz?
This is purely a political question- but if Bush goes down as hard as it appears he will- people will be asking tough questions about what went wrong.
I would point to the many months earlier this year- when he kept going out daily making his lame social security speech even though it was obvious that the more he talked- the worse the support got for his plan and the lower his Approval ratings fell.
Any political advisor who would have him continue that asinine campaign should have been fired months ago. Wonder if it was Rove?
During his press conference, Fitz made it clear that he was uncomfortable with charging anyone with revealing classified info, because he felt that it’s dangerous to be too strict about those things. He sited the British Offical Secrets Act as being too extreme.
A good example of prosecutorial over reaching in that area would be the pentagon Papers. Daniel Ellsberg gave hundreds of pages of classifed documents to the NY Times and would have gone to jail for many many, years, if Nixon hadn’t screwed up by breaking into Ellsberg’s psychiatrist’s office.
That pissed the judge off so much, he dismissed the case.
rwcole – A bad lawyer might be able to put it off for a year, that is what I was trying to in part say.
Dean raises a big question: can Fitz indict Cheney without Libby’s help? The answer is almost undoubtedly no. So let’s hope that Fitz has already recognized that and has a few more ways of attacking the VP.
Feel free to slap me if this has been previously discussed…
Could one of the knowledgeable commenters here hold forth on the angle that struck me as I read the indictment and news conference transcript:
Is this more-detailed-than-necessary indictment meant as a “road map” for the direction of congressional hearings or for an expanded special investigation?
More realistically, is it now in the public realm to aid whomever in the Senate (Democrats or the Independent at this point) would be willing to make official demands in this direction?
EPU
you’re right about the danger and about the delay. But by then,hopefully, we’ll have a dem. congress and it’ll be off everyone’s plate. I think once BushCo. is toast, the investigaiton ends.
I have always estimated that 35% was as low as Bush could go in JAR. I now think that he can go into the twenties.
But what the hell- there is probably no political difference between the two. He’s dead politically at this level.
Pachacutec – A question: How big do you think his base really is? If it is just the “wackos” their political power is very disproportionate to their actual numbers. Don’t you think they are the 32% or whatever percent who think he is doing ok now, or at least a part of it?
EPU- Yeah- and that court date is merely to review progress. Nothing official is to happen. We’ve got to go through the security clearances for the attorneys in the case- and then the security discussions about any evidence that they subpeona.
I would think that a good lawyer could kill at least a year before trial- and none of what will go on in the interim will be interesting to most people.
Why would the CIA not cooperate w/Fitz? they asked for this investigation after all.
Unfortunately, the CIA director who called for the investigation now spends his time polishing his medal of freedom and feeling like a sap.
rwcole – Good attorneys who work in the area of “white collar” crime always play for time. You might think of it as akin to the time value of money – a free day today is worth more than one in jail (which may or may not happen). But more importantly, the gov’t, when it indicts, has its case put together, the defense does not, and putting together a good defense does take time, there is typically a lot of evidence to go over in a white collar case, although I will add the caveat that obstruction and perjury and making false statements are not necessarily complex crimes, in this particular case given the underlying tensions and motives, I think they are.
More importantly though, although Federal Judges are graded on how quickly they dispose of cases, the system itself is really not set up for quick action – there is a lot of lawyering – i.e. motion practice – that goes on before a case ever gets to trial. There really is nothing odd about the next court date being in Feb, it seems pretty reasonable.
The biggest news- in my opinion- is the political collapse of the president.
I played golf with my regular group today- about thirty guys- 75% goopers- they’re sick of him- some of these guys would have taken on a small army for him a year ago- now they can hardly mention his name.
The polls are in the toilet.
Zogby is releasing a poll today that says that the majority of americans think that he should be impeached if he lied about the reasons for going to war.
Congressional goopers are backing off so quickly that you can hardly see the blur of their feet moving.
The press- who is now feeling guilty for being pawns in the great “lie for war” scheme- are pissed off about being rolled- they’re after his sorry ass daily.
I’ve never seen political fortunes collapse so rapidly!
It’s like the wonderful one hoss shay- it didn’t wear out- it destroyed all in a second.
Bush keeps doin and sayin nothin- hopin that this will all go away.
Exactly the WRONG thing to do- as goopers keep telling him.
This implosion of a presidency is happening right now before our eyes. It almost doesn’t matter what more Fitz delivers.
The View From The Bunker
Let’s war game this from the Bush perspective.
First of all, he has trouble getting trustworthy advice in this, from a strategic point of view, because his #1 advisor is implicated and not able to provide the most unbiased point of view. That adds to Bush’s difficulty, as he has trouble with stategery.
Ok, Bush does not want a trial and he does not want a plea, in that either will put his administration in real jeopardy.
He does not care about anyone else’s legal liability. He, like his mother, has no heart for the help.
Bush wants to be a hero, to best his father. Not looking good right now, but he needs to get through this.
The best thing that could happen for him would be for Libby to enter a guilty plea outright to all charges. That would require elocution (Libby would have to fess up in some detail to the charges, describing what he had done wrong).
But that, at least, might stall the prosecution and limit the possibility of everything else coming to light. Libby would have to fall on the sword completely. Bush then claims there was one bad apple (sound familiar?), and he’s gone. Let’s move on.
How do you induce Libby to do this? You must promise him a pardon, off the record, and hope that he will trust you. No such promise, of course, can be binding. You can even pull the football away after he enters a plea if you want, but he has to believe that you won’t.
Well, I tend to doubt Libby would want to put all his eggs in that basket. Libby knows Bush well, and and I just think he’s too smart to cut off all his strategic options that way. Whether or not his new legal team is disinclined to plea out, Libby certainly is showing that at least he is keeping his options open. He’s hired some fighters.
So, if you are Bush, and Libby seems to be off the reservation, or at least not a lock, what do you do?
I think if you are Bush, you just try to stonewall and gut it out. That’s his style. I don’t think he has a plan, or an endgame. He’s not a planner.
He is distancing himself from Cheney, and maybe even from Rove, based on his public comments today. But he does not want to make any changes that suggest anyone is forcing his hand. You have to know he hated pulling Miers’ nomination, and if he seems to get pushed into a White House shakeup, in his mind, he’s only showing more weakness.
Nevermind that he will probably have to do all these things anyway. Everything we know about Bush suggests that he believes hope constitutes a plan. He’s waiting for the hurricane to pass (so to speak), but has no idea how badly his home will be flooded in the aftermath. Will there be a house left? He’s trusting it to God to bail him out, somehow.
Meanwhile, Libby is examining his options, but won’t make any decisions until he gets discovery. Once he knows how tight the case is, he can better assess his chances at trial.
Furthermore, Rove and Cheney both realize that Bush is unreliable and covering his bets by placing some daylight between himself and them.
Laura may also figure in others’ calculations: by all accounts, she had a role in pushing Bush to nominate a woman for the O’Connor seat, first time out. Laura might very well encourage Bush to chuck them all overboard if he has to, and her influence waxes as that of the other advisors wanes. She has become the caretaker of her husband as he freaks out and possibly falls off the wagon, after all, and Bush is susceptible to the influence of a woman who puts her foot down. Look at all the mommies in his life.
But even more than Laura, I’ll bet the person with the most juice right now, whispering in his ear, is Karen Hughes. I wonder what she’s telling him: probably to stonewall, but chuck the others overboard if and when he has to. She can step in to become White House Chief of Staff, if it comes to that.. It would not surprise me. Does anyone know if Karen has returned to the States?
I think that what we know of Bush’s character, and based on the leaks and rumors, we can conclude that the portrait I am painting now is not far from the truth. And if I’m right, then GOP members of congress and anyone under the threat of Fitzgerald’s investigation will realize that the president is not necessarily their ally. They cannot count on pardons, even if pardons have been hinted at or promised, directly or through intermediaries.
So, looking through the looking glass the other way, it appears to me that the top of the GOP is in disarray, without leadership and without a plan to get through this crisis. Bush is hunched in a paranoid crouch as his numbers plummet below sea level.
He’s hoping the Alito nomination will invigorate his base and get him a “win” on the board if he passes. Then, he hopes, his poll numbers will rebound as his base comes home. That’s his recovery plan, but I think the chances of a smooth nomination, or even a successful nomination, are tenuous at best. And if Fitzgerald does not succeed in bringing more indictments, and the Libby trial is delayed until the end of his term, he might get through. Other presidents have had very bad periods and rebounded, so he thinks he might get by as well. Stay the course. That, at least, is the hope. That is his “plan.”
The result? These still seem to me like optimal conditions for Fitzgerald’s investigation. There are many fingers in the wind among the conspirators, but I think that soon all concerned will conclude the situation has devolved into “every man for himself.” That creates fertile ground for potential flippers. And that’s the textbook way for a prosecutor to break up an organized crime syndicate.
zeppo -
Fitz was CLEAR during his press conference, noting that the lies threw sand in the investigative gears, so that he could not AT THIS TIME make the original charge.
Secondly, yeah, you got it:
“My client did nothing wrong. And, everyone else does it, too. And, no harm was done. And, _____________…”
I have yet to see the Fat Lady anywhere nearby.
—
OMG!!! The Christian Science Monitor is finally publishing a negative editorial on BushCo!!!
http://news.yahoo.com/s/csm/20…../yschorr04
I thought I would _never_ see that. I have been dunning them for awhile.
Anastasia — Alito is by no means a shoe-in, IMO. Witness his (to say the least) questionable refusal to recuse himself from a case involving Vanguard Funds, after having promised in confirmation hearings that he would do precisely that.
If there is more such behavior to be found, it WILL be found. And this type of behavior has NOTHING to do with “ideology” of the type people usually get so exercised about.
What I want to know is this: given that the White House was so desperate to get the confirmation hearings over with before Christmas, or at least the New Year, how was it possible for the Dems to get Specter on board for later hearings, the second week in January?
I think this provides a goodly amount of time to see if Alito has more skeletons in his judicial closet.
Zeppo- Goopers are ignoring one clear fact. Fitzy said that Plame’s identity was classified information. That’s really the end of the story- but it doesn’t keep the goopers from quibbling that he refused to say that she was or was not covert.
It’s totally stupid- but it’s all they’ve got.
Otis- makes sense- he’ll use every trick in the book to keep pushing the trial date forward (later) and then plea guilty the first day.
Thanks EPU- yeah I suppose it could take a few weeks to get the sentencing done. Not long enough for scoots I’ll wager. I think he’ll string this thing out as long as possible- until after the midterms if possible- and it may be possible.
I’ve also noticed some inconsistencies in the positions thrown out by the wingnut media types. One line of thinking is, like I posted up top of this thread, is that since Fitz didn’t charge Libby with outing an undercover agent then she wasn’t undercover and no crime was committed. Right…
The second line of “reasoning” (I hate to call it that) is that it was all the CIA’s fault, that it was THEIR responsibility to keep their agent undercover, and it was all Ms. Wilson’s fault for sending her husband on a very visable mission abroad. Right….
But aren’t these two lines of “reasoning” CONTRIDICTORY? How can Ms. Wilson be not undercover and yet it’s the CIA’s fault that he cover was blown? In other words, aren’t the wingnuts just throwing ANYTHING out there that they can think of that will perhaps make them all feel better? Cause they sure aren’t convincing the rest of us.
I’m just an engineer, not a lawyer, but really…..
Andrea Greenspan and Tweety are hopeless concerning economic realities, of course. And Chavez is their favorite new boogeyman.
They think that the phrase “free trade” makes it sound like all sweetness and light. Clueless, perhaps intentionally so (esp. in the case of Mrs. Turtle Greenspan).
On CNN, on the other hand it was great to see Lou Dobbs bitch-slap Leslie Blitzer and his side-kick in hyper-capitalism, John King.
Dobbs, for all his annoying and exasperating characteristics (and his weird idolizing of St. Judy), knows what’s what in terms of the “little guy” getting kicked around by these trade agreements. He decimated their pathetic attempts to make the demonstrators seem like nothing but petulant looney-tune brats.
Otis – A client of a friend of mine once plead to the initial federal charges without a plea agreement (although he then did get a plea agreement). Did a year in jail. None of that mattered. Two years later he was indicted and convicted, along with everyone else as part of two conspiracies, plus some underlying acts.
That is always a dangerous way to go, b/c it does not end the danger.
Dershowitz may get me down temporarily but being blindsided down the road is worse. Once Alito is confirmed, we’re stuck.
Expecting the worst, but creating a strategy to deal with it is a good, positive thing. If what Dershowitz says is true, it seems clear (to me, anyway) that the road to getting the truth out about the lead up to the war, and the Plame leak may very well end up in the Supreme Court’s hands.
If we take action now; by doing everything we can to block Alito’s nomination, we may be able to get the results that we want.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..01685.html
WaPo: 60% disapproval rating, adminstration record. The story is top of the _FRONT PAGE_, right next to the Anti-Bush riot coverage. It’s a must see ;)
Who says writing letters to the press doesn’t help??? They do respond to the public, and every paper I have known, reads all their mail :)
Even better if he can come up with an interlocutory appeal issue. Then he doesn’t even have to plead now. The case wouldget stayed until his appeal is over. Maybe he appeals over the failure to give all the classified stuf he claims he needs (even thho he really doesn’t need it, it sets up an issue for an appeal)
Just a thought.
Ms K- Yeah I’ve thought for years that those eyes are seein a movie show inside her head that’s much better than the one playin outside.
rwcole – Jail most likely will not be immediate. The government and Scooter’s people which each put together sentancing reports. The gov’t saying bad Scooter, and his side saying what an asset he has been to the community and this is such an aberration. It can take months, although I am sure it can be shorter. That is typically how it works in white collar cases.
All bets are off though if they charge anything relating to the Espionage Act or IIPA. Then they just may haul his ass off after a guilty verdict.
The Libby thing is going to die down soon in any event due to lack of new information.
Goopers are already pointing out that the trial will be a LONG time from now- and that scoots gets the benefit of the assumption of innocence until then yadayada.
It will be hard to sustain much about him after a couple of weeks of no news.
Interestingly enough- it’s ROVE that provides the ongoing news action- as long as Bush keeps him in place!
If Bush were to fire him tomorrow- he would be buying as much distance as he can get.
I saw that pic of Laura the night before last, and I must say it’s shocking. Especially because it’s not the only one at the “royal event” where she brings to mind Sunset Boulevard. There are several pics with the frightening, popping eyes.
What’s with her? Is she on drugs? Over-medicated?
rw–Maybe he stays in file some motions, then he can, and should from his perspective, plead straight up to the indictment, without an appeal waiver. he can stya out while he appeals his losing motions and wait for his pardon.
I’d like to make a special request of ReddHedd (I’m also making it of Jeralyn) for some blogging on what exactly Fitz has to prove for the charges currently pending against Scooter. once we look at the elements and the evidence we know he has, we can have better idea of what more he needs and how he would get it.
Thanks in advance.
Otis
Otis- Yes they would love to make the pain stop- but if he pleads guilty- how long before they come to take him away? He can’t appeal a guilty plea. Seems that the jail time starts about fifteen minutes after the guilty plea- unless I’m missing something.
Respectfully disagree that a plea now is that helpful to the Repugs. As long as there are American soldiers dying in Iraq, the Traitorgate issues are not going to go away, and then there are Katrina, and Delay, and…..
It is a run-away train. Kristoff is right, the public has finally caught on that the emperor has no clothes.
To rwcole | 11.04.05 – 2:40 pm
Scooter isn’t IN jail. He can wait until then but it continues the punishment for BushCo. The idea in this example is to make the pain stop.
Me- Thanks for putting the links on a static page. Have you considered firing up your News Banner Fader that comes with proboards? A slow flashing message directing your regular visitors to that links page would help get extra instant attention to it. You rock.
Wonder when reporters are going to start reporting on the insanity of President Clusterfuck’s position. He’s hiding behind the “ongoing investigation” line to avoid saying or doing anything about this- and he’s getting away with it.
The fact that there is an investigation going on doesn’t keep him from:
1) Firing Rove
2) Taking away Rove’s security clearance
3) Talking to Rove and asking him to either come clean or leave.
4) Saying what he personally knew and when he knew it.
Bush is pleading the fifth.
Another thing-Call me a crazy defense lawyer but why does Fitz have to fill his case w/masses of Classified docs to prove Scooter lied to the GJ and obstructed their investigation?!? As to perjury, he has to prove an ongoing investigation, Scooter as a witness, an oath and a lie. He also has to prove the lie was material. For that he’s got to prove it was material to the IIPA investigation, not to a broader conspiracy. he didn’t charge that.
As to obstruction, it is similar. He has to prove an ongoing investigation and that Scooter did or said something which made it harder (sand in eyes metaphor here) for the investigator/prosecutor to do his job.
Otis- nice post on the advantage of the plea without co-operation- but why not just wait until the day before trial to do it. Why sit in jail any longer than needed?
http://www.yahoo.com/s/260613
Cheney still pushing torture… what a sick dick…
Zeppo… I don’t know if you have ever been near a full blow riot, but these protesters are only a block away… You can hear a good riot for nearly a half mile. They roar, lots of screaming, breaking glass… They raise quite a din ;)
For all to consider who think there is a way out of this for the Repugs.
There are two issues the repugs have to deal with: 1. The lies told to get us to go to war; and, 2. the cover-up.
If 1 is false (i.e. the gov’t did not lie), then you don’t ever get to 2.
If 2. is true it proves 1 is true.
The point is they, the Repugs, can’t have it both ways. If they are argue that the gov’t didn’t lie (let alone manufacture the evidence) then why stonewall, why the cover-up, why the lies? If they want to prove there was no cover-up, then they have to come clean on the “why we went to war” evidence and prove they didn’t lie.
They boxed themselves into this corner. Which proves the point that your Mom was right when she told you why shouldn’t lie, because it leads to more lies.
The Repugs can’t defend one position without given up the other. If I am Fitz, I am very happy where I stand going into this case.
And don’t let Dershbag get to you. He probably pissed he wasn’t hired. Wait, there is always Scooter’s appeal.
I’m thinking that Bush was looking forward to the South America trip to get away from all this nasty publicity that is starting to come out like water from a sieve. Sounds as if he was unhappily surprised. If he saw any of it, of course… And Rove isn’t there to give him his teddy bear and tell him that the big bad ol’ world doesn’t REALLY hate him.
Silver lining. Sort of. (From moi?)
If Dershowitz is right, the issue of releasing classified documents will probably end up in the Supreme Court.
I’m thinking that BushCo are way ahead of the game and came up with this strategy a while ago. THAT’S why Bush nominated Harriet Meirs to the SC. He knew (because he had disscussed it with her) that he could count on her to vote his way on that issue.
I think these guys are scared to death that the information they are sitting on will come out. Sometimes, once the sweater starts to unravel, there is no stopping it. Sometimes.
Ergo, we must stop what’s his name, (Alito?) from being confirmed. Too knee jerk.
Old timers like me remember that it was the Supremes who saved the day during Watergate, and they’ll be called on again this time to do their thing.
The comments are SO HOt today! Thanks to all of you for thining through so many angles. Couple random thoughts:
I agree with whomever said
The smart deal is to plead guilty now, way ahead of the ‘06 elections, and try to shut the show down. Shut it down without a trial or disclosures, take your medicine, then wait on a presidential pardon after the mid-term elections because, “Well, he paid his debt and he was only just guilty of talking to reporters.” That’s how to play it.
If he pleads without cooperation, this has several advantages. First, it shuts down the public interest pretty quickly. The MSm will move on. Also, the plea to perjury doesn’t cause Scooter to lose his 5th Amednment privilege because he’s still exposed to other crminal liability. So he will not have to testify in Wilson’s civil suit, or in a new GJ. It forces Fitz to make his case against Cheney and/or Rove independent of Scooter. Can he do it? Hard to say. It does increase the likelihood of Rove getting indicted to put some leverage on him to cooperate.
As to the classified material delay-yeah, it’ll be a delay, and Dershewitz is right, it’ll be a problem, but its not insurmountable. Why would the CIA not cooperate w/Fitz? they asked for this investigation after all.
Fitzy is already in possession of the classified information contained in the indictment and has certainly thought through the problem of releasing it.
Libby could claim that there was some explicit exculatory evidence that he needs to defend himself and the White House could refuse to release that- setting up a bit of a legal war.
I’m not sure that they want that grief.
There are mechanisms for handling that sort of an impasse- and if it turns out that the stuff in question is neither exculpatory or dangerous- they could be cruising for another bruisin.
Bush: “The Way You Earn Credibility With The American People Is To Set A Clear Agenda That Everybody Can Understand”
And your agenda is to destroy the country, no?
I think a lot of people are finally getting this.
Re: Hardball tonight:
I’m sorry, I missed when Andrea Mitchell became an expert in Latin American politics.
Here’s someone who does know about Latin American politics, for future reference:
http://beautifulhorizons.typepad.com/
He has no current blog entry up, however.
Thanks for the link to the Dean article- this is at least his third piece. The first was great- the second was very peculiar- and this one seems objective and well reasoned.
There has been lot of discussions about Libby’s strategy and pardons.
I have no doubt that Libby is hoping for a pardon. His actions so far show it- he rejected plea bargains- hired a big time attorney – and said publicly that he’s gonna take it to the wall. All of that delivers the message that he’s not co-operating with Fitz- which he needs to say in order to keep the pardon hopes alive.
It is in his interest to make certain that the trial date occurs after the 06 elections if possible. He can then enter a guilty plea the day before trial and throw himself on the mercy of the burning Bush- or he can continue right up to the trial and hope Bush decideds that the embarassment of the pardon is not as hurtful as the harm of a public trial. A lot depends on timing. A public trial in- say- October- would be deadly!
Of course Libby can’t absolutely DEPEND on a pardon (unless someone has already made him a solemn promise- and even then?)
Fitz could up the stakes by laying down another indictment- perhaps the nuclear one- conspiracy- that would shake up everything.
The political costs of a Libby pardon may well be cost effective for Bush- (he was a loyal guy who got carried away with protecting his bosses- and he’s suffered enough- and the prosecutor is overreaching with the 30 years stuff- etc)
The political consequences of a pardon to all members of a conspiracy- which might include HIM would be much too serious.
Of course if his pollings continue to decline he may have nothing to lose within a year.
Lots of other possibilities between now and then that could tilt the balance of consequences.
Hope Fritzy goes for the gusto with the conspiracy charge- even if conviction is less than certain- it would change the whole nature of the dialogue and sharpen the risks for every one. Make the charge and let a jury decide. We’ve seen convictions on a whole less evidence than what he’s already shown.
Make the rats scramble.
Mathews and Mitchell are “completely surprised” (*gasp*) at the reaction in Argentina.
Get real. We all knew this was going to happen.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9903864/
Carter goes on record against TortureCo
Thanks ME, for pointing out that we need to take action by putting pressure on the MSM and may I add, the Dems in Congress to get the true story out.
Whether it’s by invoking rule 21, or some other avenue, we need to keep the pressure on.
Dan – I’m really concerned about what Dershowitz said about the WH refusing to release the classified material. It seems incedible to me that the WH could get away with that, but he’s a lot more knowledgable in these areas than I am.
I never know whether or not I’m imagining these things, but I thought that Libby looked all too serene, even a little smug at his hearing yesterday. As if he knew something we didn’t.
If withholding the info is the WH strategy, then of course Libby won’t plea. He already knows the outcome will be in his favor.
Somebody pass the anti-depressents.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9926175/
Another gooper caught in the net…
Its clear that Fitz has more info. that we do, but even given that, it has always seemed strange that even with the facts made public, he couldnt get Libby (or Rove) for outing Plame- I understand that when you have the main suspects lying to the prosecutor for two years, it makes it difficult to make a case, but the standard of proof for a grand jury indictment is obviously much lower than at trial- Fitz doesnt have to prove all the elements to the grand jury.
I agree with John Dean- Fitz has something up his sleeve and all the conservative spin-meisters are going to have to change their tune.
What is really infuriating me to the point where I am gonna have to go on antihypertensive medication, is how the White House refuses to comment on this, saying “we have said alll along we do not comment on an ongoing investigation” and now they have added “legal proceedings” to the mix- its just unacceptable.
dan -
I would put NOTHING beneath these people in their efforts to prevail and escape accountability.
—
The problem with journalists or anyone else defending Miller, or using her as a poster child for first amendment issues, is that she was a CO-CONSPIRATOR. She was part of the very crime that she, as a reporter, was suppsed to be covering. There was nothing reportorial or journalistic about her actions. The most damning evidence – she never wrote an article on what is clearly Pulitzer Prize material – the lies told by the gov’t get us to go to war and the cover-up. How could she though, as she would have been exposing her own insidious role. But even without that her actions speak for themselves.
If they want to use someone as the point for this debate, why not Matt Cooper? He at least appears to have acted as a journalist.
yeah and average Americans too Wilson ;)
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/200…..olitics_dc
BushCo has reached new lows in his integrity.
“They’re burned out,” said one Republican, who spoke on condition of anonymity.
When they get like this, they make even more mistakes ;)
My mother just said, regarding the protests in Argentina: “That is closest Bush has ever gotten to any military action.”
Granite State Destroyer – your mom rocks!
…and she owes me a new keyboard.
Alan Dershowitz believes that the Libby case will be thrown out because the WH will instruct all agencies to not agree to allow “classified” information to be divulged to Libby’s defense team.
Is that the ace that Libby’s defense will use? We need access to the classified information to prove our case that Libby did not commit perjury.
agents provocateurs are useful to foment violent demonstrations or riots that will require a “strong and determined leader” to protect the “silent majority” from the terrorists or negroes or hippies or jews or communists or anarchists or evil-doers or …
The anchors FINALLY have some real concern in their voices.
Keep the pressure on them. Inside, outside, legal… Make em feel the heat.
Eventually, the MSM will wake up. BushCo has destroyed international relations, the world is turning against us… And I don’t want to fight in WWIII…
Sending written protests now, when they can be believed and understood, can make a difference.
But it’s going to take a lot of voices. If we can catch this before it ignites, it will save lives.
Baseball? Fugitaboudit.
Boxing.
The correct analogy is not baseball but boxing. Fitz jabbed. You use your jab to set up the cross. But you need to get your opponent’s balance off so that when you come in with the cross, they aren’t in any position to counter punch. When you bring the crossing shot, it opens up the puncher because they put everything they have into the cross. So by working the jab, you can get your opponent’s weight moving backward so that they don’t have the balance or footwork ready for the counter punch when you bring in the cross.
Just sayin….
=
Watching MSNBC and the violent protests and riots against Bush in Mar Del Plata, Argentina. Fugly stuff. The anchors FINALLY have some real concern in their voices.
Me — fuck Shelly Levine; you’re the Machine.
god bless you brother.
Dan – Thanks for the New Republic link. I fired off a letter, and added their editor and letters dept to my list for political dunning ;)
online@tnr.com
letters@tnr.com
Send em something ;)
Dan Robinson — they want you to pay money to read that Rosen article. It sounds way, way too wanky for me. Any article that defines the Judy Miller-employing NYT as “left” is just a waste of fucking time, IMHO.
don’t look at me – I am all riff and no raff.
I think this blog is swell.
lulu: I’m ready for my closeup, Mr deVille:
Oh, that is too much. Now if was de Groper Arnold?
We need a caption contest for this? Winner gets a ticket for a front row seat to the Libby trial!
So, if that’s not it, and the controlling law isn’t IIPA, what’s left? Treason.
He has an open and shut IIPA against Libby _now_
Why is he not charging it you might ask? Cause it works best when you can spread Libby’s actions to make an entire conspiracy liable for the charge ;)
http://news.yahoo.com/fc/business/global_economy
^^^ Stop Bush ^^^
The protest has escalated to a full blown melee… I hope BushCo is having fun visiting the neighbors.
You know if this keeps going, this can happen in the US too ;)
merciless -
I fucking HATE it when he comes here to Vegas (usually to whore for cash while photo-opping with carefully screened “reg’ler folks”). The security is so wide and suffocating it cripples much of the city while he’s here.
His Most Serene Highness Jorge W. Somoza-Bush, Beloved Leader who dares not actually go out in public.
—
Well, the Spook’s take on all this is fascinating:
http://citizenspook.blogspot.com/
“Fitzgerald is “drilling it down”.
Rats are cornered. You know what rats do when they’re cornered. He’s got them cornered. I feel it. I believe it. I am impressed. Those involved with this conspiracy are going to figure it out soon. They are the Moriarty to Fitz as Sherlock Holmes. But Moriarty was no idiot. I don’t think they will sit back and wait for the thing to play out relying on the pardon. That’s a risky strategy.
Given time, Fitzgerald will convict every one of them eventually. His eyes are wide open and he’s the better man. And they know it. That’s the scary part. They know he’s going to beat them.
Pray for the prosecutor.”
Many may take the Spook’s theories with a grain of salt, but CS makes some compelling points. To wit, Fitzgerald pointedly left out “retaliation” or “political payback” as motive in his press conference. So, if that’s not it, and the controlling law isn’t IIPA, what’s left? Treason.
I’ve wondered for some time now why did they reveal Plame’s identity? My guess is that it goes well beyond a bitch slap for her husband. I also think it all goes back to Cheney-the rest are bit players (including the puppet-Bush). Hell, a man who approves torture is capable of silencing all enemies, foreign or domestic.
But, what the hell do I know?
Good catch, Jane.
I read Jeffrey Rosen’s column at The New Republic http://www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml?i…..osen111405 and I think he is out to lunch.
Anyone else here read that?
-
My mother just said, regarding the protests in Argentina: “That is closest Bush has ever gotten to any military action.”
Wow, Bush has the Septegenarians ripping him to shreds, the press is hounding him, his own party is hassling him, Harry Reid is pounding him.
Suddenly this pic-nic just doesn’t seem all that fun anymore, heh Georgie?
-GSD
riffraff? moi?
Or maybe she’s thinking about fa-fa-faaaava beans…
Ach!
I’m ready for my closeup, Mr deVille:
editorial.gettyimages.com/source/search/details_pop.aspx?iid=56059344&cdi=0′
It’s easy to get lazy around here. Most everything one needs to feed this blog will eventually come up in the comments.
It’s really amazing what you’ve created here — it’s like a 24/7 war room dedicated to hashing out TraitorGate issues.
Hopefully you won’t become so popular that the riffraff start pouring in, and ruin everything. :)
Jsaro They have such unrestrained power and a formidable propaganda operation. Damn the torpedoes!
They used to have these things. Not anymore. They are greatly weakened. They are weakened in every area. If they “damn the torpedoes” they will just keep taking hits and sink all the faster.
This ship is already low in the water and listing heavily. The commander does not even recognize they are damaged… No damage control has been ordered…
There is a good WWII story that relates. The Japanese went all out on a brand new battleship. The designers told the military it was unsinkable.
On it’s maiden voyage, it crossed the path of a US submarine, which put 5 torpedoes into it. The captian ignored the hits, kept steaming full speed onto it’s destination… And it went to the bottom with all hands.
It may sound chivalrous, but it’s just plain stupid… Something shrub likes to do across the board… Never admit a mistake, never admit it causes damage, never admit polls are down and people are turning.
It’s a mistake, he is not up to the job of C-in-C, and unless someone steps up and takes over the helm, his ship will sink too. It’s gonna be ugly; flotsam, dead bodies, and oil scum.
BobbyG, he is mercilessly hounded wherever he goes. Remember the pope’s funeral? Bush had to be hustled in and out of limos because of the crowds that gathered screaming at him. Poppy’s adopted son, Bill Clinton, on the other hand, got out and took a walk around Rome, where he was greeted with cheers and hugs.
Remeber the Social Security US tour?
Remember the most recent Texas vacation?
You have to think he’s getting the hint.
Note to President Bush: If they’re not out to get you, it’s paranoia. If they really are out to get you, it’s a healthy, rational fear.
I believe there are special rules in place for dealing with highly classified materials in a Jury trial, and those rules allow the selection of a jury from a pool of persons who have or can quickly renew security clearances. I suppose Fitzgerald could early on present a motion for such a process, and get a ruling that would allow for a security qualified Jury Pool. I remember reading a long discussion regarding this with regard to the Hansson Case filed in Virginia. Hopefully VA rules also apply in DC, even though it is a different circuit. (Hansson of course took a plea for life without parole in order to avoid the death penality John Ashcroft was promissing.)
Evaluate Dersh by rembering he has a very close relationship with Judith Miller.
I suspect Fitzgerals has George Tenet as a witness — a witness to Cheney directly asking him about Valerie Plame Wilson. NOC status is so secret in the sense of “need to know” about the only people who could get the information without a demonstration of “need” would be the VP and Bush. On Discovery Scooter will probably get a transcript of Tenet’s likely testimony. Other staffers might have been able to get find informal confirmation that she worked at CIA — but you would have to show “need to know” to get her specific job. Only the VP and the P can really override that. Tenet likely has some paper on that phone call.
Note a couple of other things. Today’s NYTimes finally has a story about the FBI investigation of the origin of the Niger Forgeries. Apparently with no announcement, and no notice to congress which had rewuested the investigation, Muller cut short the investigation — not going beyond the name of the person trying to sel the documents. A bit of Cat’s fur ought to fly over that one. Perhaps it will be an issue in the next Roberts Report???? Who, for instance directed Muller to close the investigation? Ashcroft, Cheney, Gonzolas? The intelligence committee needs to ask. Maybe Judicary ought to also ask.
There are two types of immunity:
Transactional Immunity – You are immune from prosecution for the particular crime(s) that is being investigated; and
Use Immunity – Your testimony cannot be used against you or as a basis for seeking independent sources of that information. BUT, you are not off the hook for the crime. The government can independently develop evidence against you and prosecute you.
Those are the two kinds of immunity.
http://fusioner.proboards60.co…..1131129004
The best way to get politicos off their butts is to turn up the heat. Then they have to either cook something, or get out of the kitchen.
Pacha–
I agree that a pardon is not a lock, as you say, because the political price may be high. Maybe the fiery train wreck will so consume the Republicans that they’ll get the crooks to resign first in order to salvage the party. But when have prudence and reasoned decsionmaking restrained the Cheney White House? They do things because they can. They have such unrestrained power and a formidable propaganda operation. Damn the torpedoes!
I also agree with other posters that the cabal probably has not planned out its strategy in great detail. Narcissistic hubris and karma caught up with them. They never thought the reporters would talk, and they thought they would get away with it. They believe their own bullshit, which will be their downfall.
However, is it not possible that Bush I’s pardons of the Iran-Contra players, which mostly thrust that whole sordid affair down the memory hole, fostered a political climate favorable to the right wing? A full airing of the sordid details of the gross abuse of the Reagan administration could well have tarnished the ridiculous and ongoing cult of the Gipper. It might also have engendered a more healthy respect in the electorate for real democracy instead of the misguided craven worship of selfishness and the almighty dollar that passes as conservatism these days. But the pardon power allowed Iran-Contra and Reagan’s abuses to be buried and forgotten. That was very bad for this country.
The Traitorgate affair is different in that the Wilsons have standing to being a civil suit, so you are right that some of this bad behavior will come out anyway, ala O.J. Sompson. But that does not really change the underlying abuse.
The Iran-Contra affair and Traitorgate are similar in that the underlying crimes are gross abuses of the power of the Presidency. While a pardon power is inherent in an executive, it is contrary to the notion of separation of powers and the spirit of democracy that a president should be able to shield himself and his surrogates from the law, when the law-breaking involves gross abuse of the office of the Presidency. Maybe we need a constitutional amendment to limit the pardon power.
Like that’s gonna happen.
Pach – I’m sorry if I upset people by stating what appears to me to be a strong likelyhood. I have every confidence that Fitz will do everything possible to win this case. I’m sure that if anyone can it, he can.
My way of doing things in general, is to not let my desires for a particular outcome get in the way of judgement about what is. As Lao-tzu says in the Tao Te Ching:
“Hope is as hollow as fear.”
Both emotions prevent us from seeing a situation clearly.
He also says:
“There is no greater misfortune
than underestimating your enemy.”
We all want these guys to pay dearly for their misdeeds, not merely the Plame leak but the whole shebang leading up to the war. Anyone who knows me personally would say that I’m almost a fanatic on the subject.
When we’re too sure of ourselves, we think we’ve got it made, it’s easy to get knocked off center. I think we need to redouble our efforts to make sure that the Dems do their part.
I’m not at all sure that if we get control of the Senate that the Dems will do the right thing!
If I were in Dick Cheney’s shoes, I would do everything in my power to keep Scooter Libby feeling warm, safe and on my team.
Security clearances are indeed expensive, and depending on the level, very difficult to obtain. Why, just imagine if any of those legal staffers had smoke maryjane back in college. Or happens to be gay, and therefore somehow exposed to being blackmailed. Security clearances are not pretty things….
Maybe I’m wrong, but based on this alone, it seems like any trial would be at least a year or more in the horizon.
From what I have read, security clearances required for trial can be accomplished in a month or two. Nowhere near a year.
For example, a new adminstration and staff come into the WH after elections, they all get cleared for handing paper and intelligence in just a few weeks. It’s not that big a deal.
His Most Serene Highness The Beloved Leader…
Thousands chant ‘Get out, Bush!’
Protestors swarm streets of Argentine resort
MAR DEL PLATA, Argentina (AP) — Thousands of protesters chanting “Get out Bush!” swarmed the streets of this Argentine resort on Friday.
Before dawn, thousands greeted a train bringing the last group of demonstrators from Buenos Aires, including Bolivian presidential hopeful Evo Morales and soccer great Diego Maradona, who donned a T-shirt accusing President Bush of war crimes.
Chanting “Fascist Bush! You are the terrorist!” the protesters hung from the engine and moved up the sides of the train, trying to shake hands with those inside…
http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/…..rotest.ap/
****
The adventures of Bubble Boy. He should be mercilessly hounded everywhere he goes.
—
ME: You know, about 100 goopers rode Bush’s coat tails into Congress.
Regarding pardons.
Can anyone else envision a scenario in 2006 where the poll numbers are down, Republicans are getting nervous about the election, and the Libby news just doesnÂ’t go away. This assumes Bush and Cheney are still in office!
I think the public could put considerable pressure on the Republicans running for office to take a position on presidential pardons for Libby, et. al. So Mr./Ms. Republican candidate in order to say their skin says they donÂ’t believe Libby should be pardoned. Push comes to shove and the Republicans in desperation tell Bush he has to take a stand on no pardons before the election.
How could this happen? Well there are now over 2,000 parents and loved ones who have lost family members in Iraq and 10,000 vets who are recovering from injuries. Some one like Cindy says “Mr. President, my son died because you lied about Iraq. Don’t you dare pardon those who were involved in this lying.”
Indictments and/convictions for espionage would be politically impossible for any President to pardon.
http://news.yahoo.com/fc/business/global_economy
^^ “NO BUSH” ^^
I will mention the immunity issue for someone who asked. They used to grant blanket immunity, but learned in Iran-Contra that when you give witnesses immunity in congressional hearings it poisons the criminal cases. I heard about some letters going around the Hill which suggested a much more limited or no-immunity would be used in the case of hearing on the Plame and other matters that could come to Congress.
Also… Some of this “noise” will eventually have to sink in to BushCo… Everywhere he turns he is hated and despised more and more, and with good reason. Nobody is immune to this. People said Lyndon Johnson was made of stone, and he was… It got to him, he declined to run for a second term and literally vanished off the radars when he left office. It broke him. It takes time, but Bush can be broken too.
I have a question for anyone with experience or knowledge of legal cases that envolve classified government material.
If the defense attorneys have to go through security clearences, wouldn’t it stand to reason that any associate attorneys, secretaries, clerks, paralegals, receptionists, etc, etc, etc, who may come in contact with the materials would need clearences as well? And does the government pay for them all. My understanding is top level security clearences are in the $10,000-$50,000 range. And there are bound to be glitches with the amount of people involved. Maybe I’m wrong, but based on this alone, it seems like any trial would be at least a year or more in the horizon.
froggermarch: your observations are on point. I agree with your additional analysis.
Wow, you guys & gals. Amazing comments today. Much food for thought.
It’s easy to get lazy around here. Most everything one needs to feed this blog will eventually come up in the comments.
You know, about 100 goopers rode Bush’s coat tails into Congress. Bush may not care about the political implications of using pardons to free perps in this case… But he would be stabbing his “law and order” party in the back.
There would be hell to pay.
These people are in serious trouble. A pardon may solve Libby’s personal problems, but it won’t help the cause.
All Anastasia said was that Dean’s posit “made sense” to her.
The smart deal is to plead guilty now, way ahead of the ‘06 elections, and try to shut the show down. Shut it down without a trial or disclosures, take your medicine, then wait on a presidential pardon after the mid-term elections because, “Well, he paid his debt and he was only just guilty of talking to reporters.” That’s how to play it.
Love to be a fly on the wall in the Libby house!
Especially when she found out about the tryst at the St. Regis.
Anastasia: I would point out that the mafia has been decimated by the federal government and the tools people like Fitzgerald have at their disposal.
And even if the legal process is thwarted by the pardon you think inevitable and I think highly problematic (see above), the politcal process will proceed apace and the whole criminal coterie will be likely be washed away in the tide of change (ibid, above).
If you want to persuade anyone of your point of view, you’ll have to address the many factors mitigating against the value and likelihood of a pardon in this case. Assertion is not argument.
But if you and those who agree with you think that a pardon is inevitable, and seek to persuade others that this is true by force of repetition, I would refer you to those who have been “staying the course” with a repetitious, reality-challenged argument for some time now.
How’s that working out for them?
A pardon is possible, but not by any means a lock.
And… If you even _mention_ the word “pardon” here, you owe it to all of us to sign the “No More Pardons” petition:
http://johnconyers.com/index.a…..74DE91D%7D
Truly, if you have not taken the time to complete the form, you have no justification for discussing the issue here.
Now, as “The best sign in the DC Peace March” suggested,
“Would someone please give him a blow job so we can impeach him!”
As I recall, Harriet Meiers was wearing a blue dress when first presented, with no apparant credentials to be justice of the SCOTUS. Hmmm. Now, image… begone!
Anastasia – I won’t repeat my earlier posts about attorneys, but don’t listen to the MSM bullshit about why this or that attorney was hired. Scooter is white and upper middle class, do you think he would hire a moron (or to be more polite, someone who is not considered a very good attorney). All good criminal defense attorneys are good at trials and at negotiating pleas – it is not like one is a speciality. How do these myths get started? Oh yeah, the MSM.
Second, stringing this thing out is also a none-winner for the Repugs. I agree with Pachacutec’s analysis on this – there is no win in this for them – which he posted above.
Maybe people like McCain, Hagel, Chafee, Snow, Warner have to be more proactive. If we rely strictly on the feckless Dems, it will never happen.
Write them. I have.
http://www.senate.gov/general/…..rs_cfm.cfm
It just take a few minutes to turn words into documentation.
A quick question or two for the Legal Brains:
If Libby is convicted on the existing charges, then pardoned soon thereafter, could he be re-indicted and prosecuted for perjury later?
And even if he can escape the perjury charge, what about new charges relating to other dirty business in the VP’s office.
I would imagine subsequent charges would need to be more serious than those he was pardoned for, to remove the argument that the exisiting pardon should still apply.
Ignoring the political consequences, can a presidential pardon extend to any wrongdoing, known or unknown, over a certain period of time?
My intelligence, though admittedly flawed, suggests that these rouge elements could present a future threat to the security of our great Nation. I would therefore like to request a pre-emptive pardon for the next few weeks, so I can take the suckers out. (Bring it on, Shrubby!)
Those doing research on the Niger lies might want to look at this background briefing in the White House on July 18, 2003.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/r…20030718- 8.html
.
Maybe there’s nothing new — or perhaps some useful pieces of that puzzle.
.
My daughter just got a t-shirt that says Mrs. Fitz. I wonder if that is a trend?
I hope not. Girls should aspire to more than washing a guy’s socks.
Pachacutec,
Good analysis on two points: the relative impotence of the Presidential pardon in this case and the imperative for Republican leadership to step forward to save their own party.
On the first, let me add a point I’ve made before that the timing of any potential pardon is problematic for the Reps. A premature evacuation would further enhance the odds of a Democratic Congress in 2007. Plus, anyone pardoned would presumably NOT have fifth ammendment protection against testifying, which woould open up a new can o’ slimy things. A pardon AFTER the 2006 elections would run the risk of running into impeachment proceedings begun with a Congress possesed, if the recent Harry Reid stare-down is any indication with new hangy-down things.
The Republican that best fits the Goldwater model, IMHO, is John Warner. He is past any ambitions of his own, is a former Secretary of the Navy and is Chair of the Armed Services Committee that might need to look into a few things here. I am honestly to the point I just want a decent, competent, honest bunch of Republicans (and yes, I believe they are still out there) to represent the other side of our political debate. But for God’s sake this group has to get the hell out of Dodge!
Now, as “The best sign in the DC Peace March” suggested,
“Would someone please give him a blow job so we can impeach him!”
Now that would be taking one for the team.
I volunteer. . . someone else.
Unfortunately, I think Dean is on target.
On Hardball last night, a former DC prosecutor pointed out that Libby’s lawyers are big time (very expensive) trial attorneys. He said that if someone is thinking of making a deal, they hire an attorney with a good track record in negotiating favorable plea agreements, not trial atty’s.
Whether or not it will happen in this case, the WH probably thinks that if the media, if true to form, will get tired of the story unless there is new information. For a while, Katrina was all anyone talked about, but they’ve moved on; it’s almost as if it didn’t happen.
Dean’s guess that Libby has been assured that he’ll be taken care of makes sense to me. The last thing BushCo would want is for Libby to flip, and I’m sure that’s the only way Fitz would make a deal.
All Libby has to do is string this out as long as possible and spend, maybe two years in jail before he’s pardoned. And if Bush thought it was worth the political fallout, he might even pardon Libby sometime after the 2006 mid-term elections.
Libby knows where all the bodies are buried, and could do major harm to the WH by implicating Cheney and Rove. I’m sure those guys will pay very well for Libby’s silence. It’s waht the mafia does.
when you think about it, it is really quite naughty of Fitzgerald not to indict Rove. This way Libby can get all ticked off that he is going down alone. Not to mention all the little Rove wannabees all disappointed that they may not be able to get his job.
I’d say there is a lot of danger of slippage in all that spilt milk.
A further note of Fitzgerald and classfied information:
He is not new at this. He prosecuted, successfully, Sheik Rachman over the attempted World Trade Center bomb in the early 1990’s, and he brought suit against Osama bin Laden well before 9/11.
He has worked the classified evidence beat before.
I don’t think, as Dershowitz seems to suggest, that he’s set himself up to be shooting blanks in this case. That dog won’t hunt.
good gosh, we spend all this time trying to figure out what’s going to happen. well, a friend sent this to me…here was the answer all the time!
——
George W. Bush has started an ill-timed and disastrous war under false pretenses by lying to the American people and to the Congress; he has run a budget surplus into a severe deficit; he has consistently and unconscionably favored the wealthy and corporations; he has destroyed confidence in, and good will toward, the United States around the globe; he has ignored global warming, to the world’s detriment; he has wantonly broken our treaty obligations; he has condoned torture of prisoners; he has attempted to create a theocracy in the United States; he has appointed incompetent cronies to positions of vital national importance.
Now, as “The best sign in the DC Peace March” suggested,
“Would someone please give him a blow job so we can impeach him!”
Scooter and Harriet? You’re killing me.
Evil Parallel Universe
Tell me more! Sounds like I’m missing something big time.
Scooter and Harriet? You’re killing me.
Mrs. Scooter. AKA Harriet Grant who was the General Counsel for the Senate Judiciary Committee when Joseph Biden was Chair.
Love to be a fly on the wall in the Libby house!
Steve: Warner would be a reasonable candidate. He fits the job description.
Will there be a new “Goldwater” delegation at some point down the line?
Could it be Warner?
lemond54 wrote at 12:06: “Mrs. Scooter . . . has school aged kids . . . now she’s got to put up with who knows what . . . no mother of children wants to put up with this kind of invasion of privacy.”
It has occurred to me that this is what BushCheneyRoveLibby did to Valerie Plame Wilson.
And the great wheel of karma turns, turns . . .
re: Congressional hearings.
As far as I know, none have been scheduled.
I do not know if the GOP may wish to run that play, in order to take greater control of the threat. Granting immunity stops the criminal proceeding.
It is possible they might try to go this route, as a fallback option. But carefully note, everything I said above about the way a civil suit by the Wilsons tends to decrease the value of the pardon applies here.
Even if the GOP could get away, politically, with a congressional investigation that was really an attempt to cover-up crimes and thwart the criminal process, they could not ultimately keep the underlying facts out of the public sphere.
The civil suit can gaurantee that the facts will all come out, eventually. There is no escape, in the longer term, politically. Not through a pardon, and not through a hearing on the Hill that grants witnesses immunity.
There’s blanket immunity, and the more restrictive “use” immunity. The latter meaning anything you testify about cannot be used in a subsequent prosecution. Without strict control on what you’re allowed to spew in testimony, it could end up scuttling any prosecution.
—
Another point on the Dershbag, and if I am way off it is b/c I could not bring myself to read his Huff Post peice.
But, the 8 redacted pages of super secret material is already in the court record – it has been disclosed. Why would use of it, or other secret material, in the trial now be a concern. That particular point of his makes no sense.
Fabulous comments, all! I’m particularly concerned about the possibility of congressional hearings that will give the high rollers the cover of immunity, as it did in Iran/Contra. Does anyone know if any hearings have been scheduled? By whom? Calling whom? Do the dems know enough not to fall for the trap?
If Cheney got called before Congress to testify, got immunity to do so, and walked after all this…
Am I being an alarmist?
Isn’t it possible that Fitz needs Libby to flip to corroborate someone else’s testimony?
Catherine Martin was on Air Force Two with Cheney and Libby and may have offered up details about their discussion of the Wilsons. Or possibly a WHIG has flipped, acknowledging similar discussions. To charge Cheney with conspiracy, wouldn’t Fitz need two witnesses who say Cheney was involved in smearing Wilson and outing his wife?
suntzu: a repost relevant to your comment, just for you (slightly edited, fixing some typos):
Will the GOP Survive This one?
During Watergate, it was Goldwater who was selected/volunteered to go to the White House to inform the president, personally, that he must resign. There were sufficient votes to force an impeachment.
By doing so, party leaders, and Goldwater, beat a strategic retreat that saved the credibility of the GOP, and left room for young lions like Rove and Abramoff to rebuild the party in their own Nixonian, dirty-trickster image.
Will there be a new “Goldwater” delegation at some point down the line? Who will be selected – McCain? One of the attractions of sending Goldwater at the time was that he harbored no further presidential ambitions, and so could be seen as an honest broker. McCain does not fit that bill. But every other leader on the Hill also faces indictment or implication in one scandal or another.
It can’t be Spector because he’s not trusted at 1600 Pennsylvania. Poppy’s people are trying to step in to stabilize the situation but they are not trusted, either, by the contemporary crew.
I’m not sure the whole GOP house, metaphorically speaking, won’t burn down this time. The news cycle is faster now, and back then, a delegation had time to form and to formulate action on behalf of the party. But implosion happens faster now. In the old days, Miers would have failed at a hearing, but now, with all the information out there, she did not even make it that far. The cycle has accelorated.
By the time someone formulates some way to save the party, it may be too late, especially since Bush insulates himself so doggedly, and since he has only one strategic template, with very few piano keys to play: fight, lie, distract or hunker down. He does not know how to extricate himself from a failed strategy, other than to press forward. By all accounts, Bush is already getting advice on how to restore his credibility, but is ignoring it, storming through the West Wing in impotent fury.
This crackup could come before anyone in the GOP can stop it.
Pachacutec | 11.04.05 – 10:24 am | #
A question about immunity.
If Congressional Hearing are held, and immunity granted, what is the scope of that immunity? Is it merely that the testimony given at the hearing cannot be used, or does it provide total immunity from indictment? Does it, for instance, provide immunity against an ongoing trial or a pending or sealed indictment?
Mrs. Scooter. She has school aged kids, right? And now daddy’s at home 24-7, when he used to be away 24-7. And no doubt she doesn’t have any idea what kind of lies Scooter told. But now she’s got to put up with who knows what at home. From my understanding they are well off but not super rich. And now not much in the way of income other than what they might have invested somewhere. The longer this goes on, the more pressure she’ll put on Scooter to get this thing resolved so that they can get on with their lives. Even though she looks like she has ice in her veins, no mother of children wants to put up with this kind of invasion of privacy.
from Potemkin Village – a false front, a sham set up to mislead
I think many of us give the cabal too much credit for having thought out all of the ways this “game” can play out.
First, those who are hubristic/narcissistic rarely think about all the potential outcomes.
Oh, come on, how can you say that? These are the same people who plotted out our invasion of Iraq …
Um, never mind. :)
Am I mistaken on this point?
No you are not. Your analysis is probably better than his regarding the law. He just likes to hear himself speak and see his name in the paper – remember, he once might have been a good lawyer. It is not so hard to get to cherry pick criminal appeals when you are a Harvard Law School professor after all.
The convergence of Plamegate and John Dean’s analysis make me think that history needs to repeat itself. The way Watergate was resolved was for responsible Republicans to come forward and help bring Nixon down.
With the White House controlling all branches of the government, plus being coddled by the MSM, history may have to repeat itself. It may now be the time for responsible Republicans to step up. People like Scowcroft are just the beginning, but he is a shadow from the past. We need Republicans who still have enough clout to make a difference. Maybe people like McCain, Hagel, Chafee, Snow, Warner have to be more proactive. If we rely strictly on the feckless Dems, it will never happen. Kerry, Lieberman, Hillary, Biden, are close to useless, since they co-opted the war. Dean, a voice in the wilderness. Wes Clark? Where the heck is he?Even Dennis Kucinski has disappeared All we got so far is Harry Reid and Jay Rockefeller. .
Somebody said it was not fair to expect Fitzgerald to save the country all by himself.
Unfortunately, they’re not waiting for Scooter to be out of the headlines to get back to feeding like pigs at the public trough. Hell, they may even be taking advantage of the distraction.
Question: Anyone elses’ ears go up upon hearing that Fitzgerald plans to take 2 weeks to make his case at the trial? That seems like a very long time considering that he made his case pretty clear in under an hour at his press conference on Oct 28th.
Oh, and I am humbled that FDL has used not one, but two of my graphics in one day. The pleasure is truly mine.
Btw, I have a larger wallpaper version of the iceberg graphic available here:
http://home.comcast.net/~itfes…..erg_wp.jpg
Feel free to use it.
-Monk
Inflatable Dartboard
Two more quibbles:
jsaro, re: pardon: The is another factor affecting the liklihood of pardon in this case, which I have brought up several times but which seems to have been consistintly ignored by the pardon panicked.
The major advantage of a pardon is that it causes the issuing executive to take a short term political hit in order to cut off a criminal investigation that would cause greater political damage.
But the pardon will not work that way in this case, because the Wilsons have standing in civil court to pursue damages and call witnesses. The underlying issues will come out anyway in a civil suit, if perhaps a bit later. The civil suit threat provides insurance that sunshine will eventually illuminate these crimes.
True, the pardon can help delay, but it cannot foreclose, public disclosure of the underlying crimes. This devalues the politcal leverage any pardon might otherwise bestow.
I wish I wish I wish I wish I wish that those who speak of pardons would once factor this into their calculations.
Re: Dershowitz. You would think he would properly designate the special prosecutor as a special prosecutor, not an “independent prosecutor.”
Am I mistaken on this point? He is, after all, a brilliant attorney, and I’m a schmuck with a doctorate in psychology. But we used to have an independent counsel statute, which has been allowed to lapse, and now we have a special prosecutor.
If I am right and Dershowitz is mistaken on this fundamental point, it would seem to undercut the rest of his legal analysis.
Having said that, the defense strategy he outlines seems plausible. However, I tend to doubt that Fitgerald would be so dense as to propel an investigation based on evidence he cannot use in court. That assumes a level of incompetence I think we can assume he has never displayed.
The leverage here the defense may possess in making serial requests for clasified information is the power to delay, but not to derail.
Regarding whether or not Libby flips, I think we’re getting close to a win-win situation. If he talks, he can possibly provide evidence for Fitz to go after the bigger fish (and maybe some fish who aren’t even targeted yet), and if he holds out, we get to enjoy a long, painful and embarassing (for the Republicans) very public trial.
I’m starting to think it’s possible that either way we’ll win.
And by “win”, I mean we’ll get the reigns of government out of the hands of those vicious and depraved little greedheads, and back into the people’s. Any humiliation suffered by BushCo is just icing on the cake.
Lovely, sweet, tasty icing. Mmmmm….icing!
So the Dershbag speaks. He is a joke, perhaps once a very good lawyer but perhaps then and more so now a self-serving publicity hound. They never make movies out the cases he has lost. ;-).
__ My Letter of the Day __
I used to be a Republican. I voted for GW Bush the first time around. My family used to be Republican, most of us voted a party line.
Things have changed in my family. With one exception (and he is coming around) we now see Republicans, and the Republican party as standing for a set of values that we feel are criminal in nature. Do you need a list of examples?
Bill Frist: He is a liar, his stock deals are highly questionable, he is under investigation by the SEC.
Tom Delay: He is a liar, he has been chastised for numerous ethics issues, now he is under indictment. According to todays NY Times, he solicited a private charity for cash.
See: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11…..lobby.html
President Bush: He is a liar, the White House is under investigation for National Security violations. “Scooter” Libby, a top Presidential aide, has been indicted in the case and the investigation continues. Karl Rove has been implicated.
This is just the surface. The deeper you dig into the behavior of these people, the more it becomes apparent that what they call “politics”, my family and I call “criminal behavior”. These are not “Good Christian Politicians” these are criminals masquerading as politicians.
1) Bush’s used the main stream and right wing press to spread propaganda and lies throughout America in order to press the country into a war with Iraq. Now we are mired, no way out. We have spent billions of dollars in borrowed federal funding and have literally nothing to show for it. The numbers of dead and severely wounded grow weekly. Unjust war, war where we are not threatened, much less attacked, is not something our family values.
2) Secret prisons, torture – These are not our family values, not even close. We find these practices to be utterly revolting.
3) Bush and the VP Cheney have taken great pains to hide their intelligence, their secret prisons, evidence of torture. They take great pains to hide the lies and propaganda that they used to promote war. People only hide things when they don’t want people to see the truth. Secrecy is not something our family values.
4) Bill Frist and Pat Roberts in the Senate have been cooperative with the criminal behavior in the White House. They have repeatedly stalled investigations into the White House intelligence. By cooperating with people engaged in the type of repulsive behavior the White House has been involved in, they become part of the problem. Guilty by association. Our family does not value people that cooperate and support unjust war, corruption, or behavior that undermines our safety and security.
These names: GW Bush, Richard Cheney, Bill Frist, Pat Roberts, “Scooter” Libby, Karl Rove, Tom Delay… These are the leaders of a political movement that represent nothing our family stands for. These people represent what we feel very strongly to be criminal behavior. I have heard the term “Criminalization of Politics” where in truth what we are seeing is the criminalization of criminals.
Thank you,
http://fusioner.proboards60.co…..1131129004
That link ^^^ takes you to today’s updated media list :)
Swopa’s right about the overriding importance of the AF2 conversation between Cheney and Scooter. It is striking to me how integral and sure that meeting is in Fitgerald’s case. Such certainty must come from corroborating statements given to the GJ, which means that in trial, as Dean notes. Scooter and Dick must rely on the reallly lame argumant that Scooter had forgotten, just for a day or so, mind you–that HIS BOSS had told him about Plame’s status in the CIA. As if.
Clearly, Scooter’s strategy is to obfuscate and stall through the mid-terms, but I really think that strategy is doomed. Either it stretches the trial out to beyond the mid-terms and thereby risks a new Congress to investigate HIS BOSSES or (more likely IMHO), it stretches the trial only to just before the mid-terms, when the damage from Dick’s testimony will be greatest. In other words, Dick and Scooter will have to confirm under oath that in fact they did have that little chat on AF2 as the evidence seems to assure, or they will be further perjuring themselves. That means all that hooey about hearing it from reporters will just piss off the nice jurors from the District of Columbia even more. Either way, Scooter’s looking at pushing the sentencing guideline envelope to pert near the 8-10 year mark with a big ol’ “and the horse you rode in on” to HIS BOSS.
In Jesus name, we pray.
mayan -
Depressing. Yeah, and the Goopers will perhaps further poison the well by going for dog-and-pony-show “hearings” and granting immunity, to help these pukes pull an Ollie North escape.
We can only hope that Fitz has some aces yet up his sleeve. We ain’t got to the River Card yet.
—
I think many of us give the cabal too much credit for having thought out all of the ways this “game” can play out.
First, those who are hubristic/narcissistic rarely think about all the potential outcomes. It is a much better guess to believe that the cabal thought they could get away with the conspiracy, than to think they thought about their strategy if they got caught – getting caught was not part of their planning, it never had a chance to be.
Second, the idea of honor amongst thieves is laughable. There is a website called ganglandnews.com which chronicles the real life exploits of those involved with organized crime (not the sanitized and ludicrous TV version of organized crime portrayed in the Sopranos). The most notable thing about the news is that once caught, they all invariably flip on their colleagues. The idea of covering each others’ backs, believing that your fellow as yet uncaught co-conspirators are going to “protect” you is one that just doesn’t have a basis in most realities, particularly the one the Traitorgate participants find themselves in now.
No one from the conspiracy can talk with Scooter now – wouldn’t he, like Frank Pentangeli, want a visit from Tommy Hagen prior to committing suicide (proverbially of course) to know that his family is going to be taken care of? Likewise Rove, or any of the other conspirators – talk about game theory with a bunch of paranoid fucks who already thought the world was out to get them – “Dick, get your hand off the buzzer.” They are born backstabbers and users, Scooter et al know that better than any of us.
Right now, Scooter, Rove, Cheney, Preznit, and all the other players are winging it – they are being reactive, they can’t control the narrative, there are too many players and too many “secrets” that have been revealed, with more secrets to be revealed.
The game is not over. Give it time to fester, but in their house of cards will fall.
Of course, I could be wrong about all of this, so your mileage may vary.
Maybe Mrs Libby will flip.
she looks pissed
what’s a “Potemkin prosecutor”?
I agree with Jane. The longer this thing drags out, the more damage it will do to the Republicans. So hang in there, Scooter!
BTW, here’s Dershowitz’s bucket of ice water…found at HuffPo:
“So hereÂ’s my prediction about how the Scooter Libby case will go down. His two new lawyers (both of whom are tough, experienced and first rate) will demand every bit of classified information arguably relevant to his defense. The independent prosecutor will seek to turn the material over, because he knows that unless they are turned over, the judge may well dismiss the charges.
But the intelligence agencies will veto the independent prosecutorÂ’s decision, claiming that disclosure of the requested classified material would endanger national security material, even if it is not really confidential?
This is only one possible scenario, but it is a highly plausible one. It is important, therefore, for the decision to be made now as to how much power the independent prosecutor has. If he does not have the authority to disclose classified material, then he is a Potemkin prosecutor, not an independent one. Stay tuned.”
Pacha – I didn’t realize discovery had been delayed. In that case Libby presently knows even less about what Fitz has on him, and may be in for even ruder surprises.
Good point, also, about Libby’s not being Fitz’s only potential flipper. Any one of these guys could make Scooter’s sleep even worse.
There seems to be a consensus here that Dean is underestimating Fitzgerald, and I don’t think it’s simply that we’re being cheerleaders.
The ability to use presidential pardons to defeat the power of the criminal justice system to prosecute crimes at the highest level of the Executive branch gives President Cheney, his staff and his head cheerleader license to break the law with absolute impunity. Including laws against war crimes, espionage and treason. Only the possibility of impeachment is a deterrent. And with the entire federal government in the hands of the Republicans, impeachment will not happen.
The Cheney administration is running a protection racket while it robs the taxpayers and heaps gold on its supporters. The war and related atrocities happened because Cheney and his cabal are above the law. The pardon power and Republican domination of the federal government, which makes impeachment impossible, give the White House absolute power with no check, no balance, no restraint.
1) fantastic artwork – wow – this one should get the Bloglitzer Prize for jpg’s.
2) Dean WASN’T wrong last week — remember, he said Fitz wouldn’t indict anyone for the leak itself and would issue no indictments, “unless, of course, someone was stupid enough to lie to the grand jury, in which case, he must stay and clean house”. (I’m quoting from memory). Anyway, that’s what happened.
Actually, I don’t think Libby was stupid (at least since 2004). I think this is all part of the plan: stonewall, get reelected, pin it on scooter, pardon him after the 2008 elections.
By the way, are there any legal ramifications to this Cheney/torture connection?
A tad off topic, but…
I’m about 1/3 of the way through young Colby Buzzell’s Iraq memoir “My War: Killing Time in Iraq” (Putnam, ISBN 0-399-15327-6).
Wow. What an interesting style — by turns deliberately punctuation bereft GenX street talk and erudite –, what an evocative recounting of what’s problematically going on there. My youngest is 22, I think I’m gonna buy him a copy. He’ll relate, big-time. A blurb on the dust jacket says “If military recruitment is down now, wait till the kids read this book.”
(I don’t think the blurbist means it’ll increase)
—
The “Mainstream Media” wind tunnel has been filled with incessant blather about a “pardon” (as if!) and “deals.” But Patrick doesn’t make “deals.”
My latest FaBlog post touches on the problems that ensue when prosecutors DO make “deals.”
Patrick wasn’t born yesterday.
John Dean hmself is an interesting story of post-Watergate rehablitation. When Watergate first broke he was a staunch supporter of Nixon, naturally being White House Counsel. But at some time he saw the light and eventually became a witness for the prosecution, i.e., he flipped.
He ultimately did a light four months for obstruction, and was regarded as a traitor to his party by some Republican hardliners. During his stretch he was under a witness protection program, so great was the animus towards him by members of his party.
He still shows a lot of moxy by speaking up against the White House when he thinks they are offbase, just the way he did against Nixon. Any insight he can share on Plamegate is useful ‘cuz he’s been there, done that. In spades.
re: the graphic. Just brilliant. Kudos to monk.
emptywheel: we (simultaneously!) agree.
Libby isn’t going to flip. He is going to do the following:
1] Delay, delay , delay at least beyond the 2006 elections;
2] At the last moment plead guilty;and,
3] Spend a year or so in the can and get a pardon.
Why? Because it is in his best interest to do so. If he turned and avoided serious prison time, he would end up a felon with no powerful friends. If it goes to trial, the danger of the unexpected and the media circus featuring Cheney would be unacceptable to the powers that be.
In short, he is going to do what those who can help him down the road want him to do.
percy, one point: hasn’t discovery been delayed by the need to get security clearances for Libby’s attorneys? I don’ think there has been much, if any, discovery yet.
Can anyone clarify?
That’s some mighty fine artwork on that iceberg!
Oh, yeah, the post …. I would guess that the context of that July 12 chat between Libby and Cheney on Air Force Two is exactly what Fitz is trying to flip Libby about.
Two things
Dean wrote as if Cheney can give Libby a pardon, by himself. He may have usurped most, if not all, prerogatives of the Presidency, but I suspect folks would notice if the pardon had Dick’s paw print on it instead of W’s. And it’s not clear Bush would be anywhere nearly as forthcoming with a pardon as Dick would be. If I were Libby, particularly if I were aware of the poll ratings, I might not want to make that bet.
But mostly I agree with David Ehrenstein. Dean acts as if Fitz put everything on the table. Nope. Fitz has at least as much in his back pocket as we saw last Friday. He may just need Rove or Wurmser or Fleitz or someone like that to unload it all.
Right now Libby can go down without a conspiracy charge, a prospect that leaves the Ollie option open to him. But if he believes (as I think is likely) that Fitz is a hairs breadth away from conspiracy and espionage, I might settle quickly to retain the Ollie option.
Two quibbles with Dean’s analysis:
First, I also think Dean underestimates the political momentum working against Bush and Cheney as this story ferments, juxtaposed with news from Iraq and rising natural gas prices. For Libby to hitch his wagon to Cheney’s gang is risky. No doubt his new attornyes may discuss this with him.
Second, while I agree Libby is ostensibly the primary target for flipping, he is by no means the only one. Stirring up the hive disorients more than one termite. Fitzy was, I believe, as interested in the audience for this indictment as he was the primary target. Not every card has been played by every player yet. Someone may yet wish to avoid indictment. For example, wasn’t there a report of third person in the plane from Norfolk with Cheney and Libby when they discussed how to deal with the media on the Wilson story?
As I have pointed out a few times, the less politically viable Cheney becomes, the greater the liklihood that someone in this network will betray him.
Wilkerson now is identifying Cheney as the primary author of the American torture policy. And that’s just today’s card on the table.
When your approval rating is 19% and your left nut has resigned under indictment, your enemies will surface.
Big time.
Fitz made it clear that Libby could be facing 30 years in prison for the “minor” charge of perjury.
That makes me wonder if Libby might not be up for the death penalty on the Espionage Act.
Can someone lay out what conditions would have to be met for the DP to apply?
We are at war, after all—that should matter.
jane — you mentioned that there was more to come from corrigan? you haven’t posted that in another comments thread, have you?
just went to the link on Cheney and torture.
Can we start the comparisons with the Nazis now? Please?
Dean’s analysis is fascinating, and, IMO, for the most part on target. But just as he was wrong last time around about the chances for an indictment (”I cannot imagine any of them being indicted…come next week, I can see this entire investigation coming to a remarkable anti-climax, as Fitzgerald closes down his Washington Office and returns to Chicago.” ) – so too do I think he’s wrong again on one key issue:
“Will Libby flip? Unlikely. Neither Cheney nor Libby (I believe) will be so foolish as to crack a deal. And Libby probably (and no doubt correctly) assumes that Cheney – a former boss with whom he has a close relationship — will (at the right time and place) help Libby out, either with a pardon or financially, if necessary.”
If Fitz unloaded a heap’o’discovery on Libby yesterday, and/or if he’s got a conspiracy indictment in his back pocket with a lot more years attached to it, Libby’s downside gets uglier and his only out – absent a plea bargain – becomes the pardon so many of us assume he’s counting on. But can he trust his pal Cheney to remain in a position of influence? (And off the cardiac ward?) Can he trust W not to decide that Libby, like everyone else who crosses Bush’s path these days (press, Dems, WH staff, probably the twins) is just another “motherfucking asshole?” And how’s he going to respond if/when his lawyers tell him, “Scooter, we need to subpoena your WH buddies?” That could be a real pardon-pooper.
If things get worse for the WH (will it snow in Aspen?) and if Fitz has not yet rolled out his best cards (not his style), then my money is on Libby eventually flipping. Patience…
Would love to see it, personally, but I will say again: Fitzgerald missed his true calling; he should be working at the factory that makes Rorschach blots.
Cranky
My daughter just got a t-shirt that says Mrs. Fitz. I wonder if that is a trend?
zeppo–Rove is still a possibility…no one really knows, but he’s still on the table.
Jane,
This is breaking right now:
http://greyhairsblog.blogspot……heney.html
I hope all this speculation we are seeing turns out to be true. However, I was very disappointed that Rove didn’t get indicted last Friday….. Most of us had gotten our hopes up that something big was in the making back then. I tend to understand and agree with the analysis and speculation that is being done lately. However, it just seems that the whole scenario is going to play out like it has for the last five years, we are doomed to be disappointed.
But then, I’m a cynic and fatalistic…. Don’t mind me.
My daughter just got a t-shirt that says Mrs. Fitz. I wonder if that is a trend?
Dean’s a smart guy, but nowhere near as smart as Our Patrick.
If Libby flips, all to the good. But I strongly suspect the flipping will be done by other parties involved in the affair.