According to the WaPo, the only folks known to have been on that July 12, 2003, flight from Norfolk to DC on Air Force II are Cheney, Libby and Catherine Martin. Well, now isn’t that interesting?
Barton Gellman has put together one hell of a narrative that raises a whole lot more questions than supplying answers. But in reading through this article, one thing becomes very clear to me — those questions are going to be asked over and over again until they are answered. Somewhere between Katrina and the Libby indictment on Friday, the last bit of curtain got pulled up.
And an awful lot of the questions are about Dick Cheney. Not just here on this blog and other progressive spots in the blogosphere, but everywhere. And now the WaPo puts him smack dab in the middle of a conversation with Libby and Martin on how to deal with the "mosquitoesque" critic Joe Wilson — with a sledgehammer just a few hours after the flight.
Defending the war became the animating priority aboard Air Force Two that day. According to his indictment on Friday, Libby "discussed with other officials aboard the plane" how he should respond to "pending media inquiries" about the critic, former ambassador Joseph C. Wilson IV. Apart from Libby, only press aide Catherine Martin is known to have accompanied Cheney on that flight.
Hmmmm…who talked? Martin or Cheney? Or both — and how does that make you feel, Scootie Poot?
That Saturday afternoon, the indictment states, is when Libby confirmed for Matthew Cooper of Time magazine and disclosed to Judith Miller of the New York Times the classified fact that Wilson’s wife, who was known as Valerie Plame, "worked at the CIA." Just over two weeks earlier, after a previous conversation with Cheney, Libby had told Miller more tentatively that Plame "might work at a bureau of the CIA."
Well, that is interesting. Why the shift? Because Cheney was suddenly feeling directly threatened, not just the Administration as a whole, and that just can’t be allowed to stand unchallenged? Wonder how it feels to be left hanging by the boss that you’ve served with all you have? Wonder how the others working for the VP are feeling now? Watching your back can get exhausting after a while.
The uranium claims had never been significant to career analysts — Iraq had plenty already and lacked the means to enrich it. But the allegations proved irresistible to the White House Iraq Group, which devised the war’s communications strategy and included Libby among its members. Every layman understood the connection between uranium and the bomb, participants in the group said in interviews at the time, and it was the easiest way for the Bush administration to raise alarms.
Oh, hello. Guess the CIA is still unhappy about Dickie trying to pass the buck onto them for intelligence failures. Amazing how that can come back to haunt you, now isn’t it?And then the article really gets good — raising the whole issue of the Niger documents and the battle between CIA/Tenet and the WHIG whether or not the yellowcake uranium claims should be publicly used in the Presidential speeches, and for what purpose they were being pushed in the first place.
On June 9, the CIA faxed classified accounts of Wilson’s assignment "to the personal attention of Libby and another person in the Office of the Vice President." Two or three days later, Grossman told Libby that Wilson’s wife worked at the CIA and had been involved in planning Wilson’s trip. An unidentified "senior officer of the CIA" confirmed Plame’s employment for Libby on June 11, and Cheney told Libby the next day which part of the agency employed her.
For Libby, according to a senior official who worked with him at the time, "I think this just hit a nerve." By June, he said, "the blind, deaf and dumb had to be aware that something was wrong in Iraq." Uranium was "always a side issue," but it was also "the beginning of the unraveling of the big story . . . calling attention to a huge mistake he was part of. So it’s no wonder he took this personally."
A senior intelligence officer who knew of Libby’s inquiries about Wilson and Plame said in an interview yesterday, "It didn’t occur to anyone that the reason why was so that her name would go out to reporters." That, the official said, is "the lesson you learn from this."
What? And who is this? Could be any number of people trying to twist the knife deeper for Libby to save their own skins: Grossman, Rove, etc. Or it could be Tenet or McLaughlin or someone at CIA trying to pull out the Libby knife and plunge it into Cheney’s heart of darkness. It sure is interesting that all the long knives have started coming out publicly now, though, isn’t it?
Has the President okayed this — as a means to distance himself and nudge Cheney out the door?
And all those talking heads that try to minimize this as a nothing case and that Valerie Plame Wilson was a desk jockey with no real classified status? Well, someone at the CIA or the DOJ begs to differ publicly:
Out of view of the public, the CIA took the first steps towards a formal investigation. On July 30, it reported to the Justice Department a possible offense "concerning the unauthorized disclosure of classified information." In August the agency completed an 11-question form detailing the potential damage done. In September, Tenet followed up with a memo raising questions about whether the leakers had violated federal law.
Maybe it’s just me, but methinks that canard doesn’t have so many legs any more.
The last part of the article talks about the prevailing belief in the White House during that period when Ashcroft was running the investigation show that it would go nowhere. It was during that period that Libby gave his two interviews to the FBI, spinning his story that the media fed him the information.
This article is a great read, and will be a review of a lot of this information for regular readers here. But for those in the public who are just now paying attention, there are a lot of bombshells that ought to make everyone sit up and take notice — whatever their political affiliation.
And that has to be the worst nightmare of the WH political team. Because this story not only has legs, it now has wings and a teflon shell. It’s been publicly linked to Dick Cheney, the rationale for war, and whether or not the WH is filled with a bunch of self-serving liars.
Don’t know about you, but I’m stocking up on more popcorn.



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Is it possible that Fitgerald went to see Bush’s criminal attorney to warn him off a pardon. The pardon would be viewed by the prosecutor that there was an arrangement and Bush would be open to charges of conspiracy as well. Just wondering…
” Has a “signal” been sent, though?”
I think the answer is yes ;)
I’ll second ck, above – Bart Gellman rocks.
ck links to the first “Bush was warned about 9/11″ story; my favorite is just as good: Frustrated, U.S. Arms Team to Leave Iraq. WaPo, May 11, 2003.
Ten days after “Mission Accomplished,” Gellman managed to find out, and share with the rest of us, that in a war supposedly fought to keep Iraq’s WMDs out of the hands of terrorists, securing supposed WMD sites was given a low priority on the ground, and that as a result, numerous such sites were looted to the ground after they were behind our front lines.
If there had really been WMDs, they would have indeed fallen into the hands of the terrorists as a result of this looting.
A great bit of reporting – and the whole world missed it at the time. And still really hasn’t caught on.
Because the implication of that Gellman story was that either (a) Rumsfeld betrayed America by authoring such a war plan, or (b) this Administration knew from the get-go that Saddam’s WMDs never represented a significant concern, and lied their heads off about the reasons to go to war.
At this remove, it’s clearly (b). Too bad – trying Rummy for treason someday would be a definite plus.
I agree with the visitor from the UK. Blogs seem to be coming of age. I have seen excellent reporting and analysis on the Plame affair and of the backstory on the justification for the war in Iraq. There is of course some silly or purely inflammatory blogs, but they are easy to spot. And when a mistake is made in reporting or analysis in the blogs, it is generally quickly caught and corrected by other bloggers.
Ooops. Things have gotten a little out of hand…
—
How many “Scooters” do you all know?
ExcuseMeExcuseMe
is judy a yankees fan? lol.
Oh boy—new thread!
Something that I hadn’t seen people mention here (perhaps because it’s just too obvious and juvenile) is the rediculous coincidence of both Bush and Cheney happening to have press events during Fitzgerald’s press conference.
I was watching CNN, and they broke out to a small window with Cheney giving his talk before the troops/props, and then another small window with W. Just inexcusably juvenile. Did they really think that CNN would break away from the Fitzgerald conference?
I’m a little disappointed that CNN covered the Bush/Dick events at all, it was a little bit distracting.
Thad Beier
Remember the GOP senator from Kansas hollering about senate oversight for Fitz?
noticeably silent…
Has a “signal” been sent, “if you plan to disrupt Fitz’s investigation, make sure you have nothing to hide.”
Pure speculation on my part, of course.
When Tenet resigned he employed the age old “personal family reasons” exit line, but the phrasing at the time struck me as odd:
“It was a personal decision, and had only one basis in fact: the well being of my wonderful family, nothing more and nothing less.”
“Well being”?
Brings out The Sopranos fan in me,
and so I think Tenet was telling the truth
to the public.
I wonder how much truth he spoke to Fitz…
(cue Jaws theme).
MC – I keep wondering about that too – Plame being involved in nonproliferation makes her just too perffectly positioned to know the truth of Iraq and WMD – a clear danger to BushCo who wanted to sell their new product of War in Iraq. I jump back and forth between thinking the attack on Wilson/Plame was just standard Cheney attack games and that it was also an attack on Plame’s team’s info which could have discredited the “features and benefits” of their sales proposition.
Has a “signal” been sent, though?
Impeachment is a great goal- but it is far away at this point.
Let’s settle for a Cheney indictment. That’s enough for now.
Having 4 daughters and a wife all needing “Dad” time on Sunday, I regret that I will have to catch up reading your excellent questions and comments that pile up by the minute later.
I was hoping that some of you could expound on some thoughts…
1) Impeachment begins in the House. A Texas prosecutor has indicted the house majority leader, forcing him to step aside.
2) Impeachment takes place in the Senate, the majority leader current under investigation by SEC and State of North Carolina, I believe.
3) Top White House officials under investigation, one under indictment, investigation continues…
4) Abramoff and Noe under indictment, God knows how many politicians this leads to, and in the Noe case could shed some light on the Election Day problems in Ohio.
Could be the GOP’s chickens coming home to roost all at the same time…
Could be that some honest Americans are not going to wait any longer for the politicans to return this government to ” We, the people…”
Could be a revolt of long term civil servants sick of being badgered and ridiculed in jobs that they actually care about…
A previous colleague of Fitzy was on NPR friday saying that it was likely that Fitzy would do a plea bargain down of Scooter’s crime to alllow prison time. This guy said that this could happen without any additional co-operation on Scooter’s part. He said that this would be consistent with what Fitzy had done in the past.
Think that the guy was a gooper shill- but if anything LIKE this happens- then Fitzy would have lied about his whole premise- punishing the throwing dust as heavily as he would have punished the crime that the dust may have obscured.
The thing for Fitzy to do is to indict Rove and let a jury decide about his hokey story. If Fitzy doesn’t do it- he’s a captive of the administration in my opinion.
Josh Marshall has a great find regarding the WP reporting on the Cheney/Libby flight on AF2:
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.c…..006892.php
If Fitzy REALLY believes that a jury would swallow Rove’s “I just ofrgot-I’m a busy man” routine- he was the wrong guy to prosecute this case in my opinion.
A daily visitor to Firedoglake from the U.K., i’m following Plamegate with interest – with an academic and personal hat on. This is perhaps the time the blogosphere has truly come of age with sourced reporting of sorts and in-depth critical analysis of facts and perspectives that is unavailable in newspapers and traditional newsources. one has to learn what and who to trust, and not only who reinforces your own beliefs. i have no idea if there will be more indictments and would be surprised if Libby ever went near to trial. in the U.K., the suicide of Dr. David Kelly who was the alleged source of a leak about *pre-war* intelligence, shock horror, being “sexed up” resulted in a public inquiry where the great and the good of British Government were hauled in front of the admirable Lord Hutton to answer questions surrounding the naming of Dr. Kelly to the press and his subsequent suicide. needless to say, the events touched far wider than procedural HR management issues for the Ministry of Defence, and despite a perceived whitewash – the provenance of pre-war intelligence was unquestionably tarnished. so, whether Fitzgerald comes up with more indictments or not, What We Now Know (Runciman et al 2004 on this) is far more than we ever would: war based on intelligence that was patently dubious at the time, a threat that even if it did exist was confined to a region far away from the U.S. or U.K., and questionable motives or fears on the part of government, and a public treated like mushrooms (an old Australian saying – kept in the dark and fed s***). Will
In my opinion, Fitzgerald has set out the framework of his investigation. His tone and demeanor at the press conference suggest to the multitudes clamoring for swift justice, have patience.
I’d bet the sheer amount of tips and evidence pouring into Fitz’s office from civil servants outraged at this administration’s behavior in the last 5 years is staggering.
Porter Goss is embroiled in a massive exodus of “lifers” at the CIA. Ashcroft and Gonzales are perceived as cronies with political agendas. The people who have dedicated their lives to fighting crime and upholding justice are probably furious with their leaders.
I have a feeling that the DOJ is going to expose the corruption across the board in the GOP. I also have a feeling that you will see a major shift in the GOP on Capitol Hill in less than six months. The “dog pile” on the Bush Administration has officially began.
I’ve been waiting five long years…
It would be a good strategy for Fitz to do some things that create the perception that Libby is co-operating. That would rattle the cages of the bigger monkeys and perhaps encourage them to do something really stupid.
william “the pink swastika” safire launches into a morally outraged, albeit hairlipped, defense of judy miller on MTP this morning and gets bitched slapped by both russert and an equally incredulous judy woodruff. the latter interrupts safire to point out that even miller’s editors at the NYT have accused her of deceiving them. nuff said, bill (that talking point won’t fly). however, woodruff then takes it too far; she goes on to mention russert’s role in the GJ and is IMMEDIATELY cut off by her not so gracious host.
.
The one piece of news that came out of the morning shows (MTP &TW) was that Cooper said he was surprised to learn what Scooter had testified about him. He said he has no idea.
Why did Libby finger Russert? What was Libby thinking?
I keep thinking of that scene in Broadway Danny Rose, where Danny Rose is being pressured by the two hitmen to name his source. Rose keeps pleading he is only the beard, then finally relents and in a moment of inspiration fingers Barney Dunn, a failed ventriloquist.
siun – very well said.
This entire process is fascinating. Fitz’s maneuver on Friday makes it all too real and starts the desensitization process, not only for the public and press but also for witnesses and subjects in this investigation. As inhibitions are lowered, Fitzgerald is better able to navigate the facts of the case without the confounding static of hysteric emotions, denial, and disbelief.
As is evident today, there is still a substantial amount of disavowel going on for many but it’s starting to thaw. What could happen next, even if more serious than the indictment of Libby, perhaps as a result will be experienced as less of a surprise for all Americans.
It makes sense that Fitzy may be takin a crack at sweatin Libby. My guess is that he will fail if that is the case.
Libby can prolong the process until we get closer to the midterm elections- then cop a plea to avoid trial- with the knowledge that a presidential pardon awaits him on the other side.
On the other hand, the climate right now is ripe for Cheney and Bush to endanger themselves with their own obstruction charges if they do anything traceable to influence Libby to “stay the course”.
Unless you believe David Kelly committed suicide, any thoughts on who logged onto David Kelly’s computer on July 17 and sent that letter describing the dark shadowy government and assorted boogeymen and clicked the send button, landing the email right into Judith Miller’s mailbox?
I find it laughable that Libby seems to be readying a Steve Martin defense (How to not pay taxes on a million dollars: First , get a million dollars. Then when the IRS asks you why you didn’t pay your taxes you say, “I forgot!”) But the more I think about it, it seems like Libby has accepted the willing (?)patsy role. “Don’t worry, Scooter, you’ll never do time, I’ve got your pardon right here in my backpocket, postdated.” Libby’s not stupid, and he didn’t lie to the FBI or GJ thinking he wouldn’t get caught in that lie.
The Post is a veritable cornucopia of great articles today: “White House Ethics, Honesty Questioned”, “Special Counsel’s Value is Upheld”, [Bush] Regaining Credibility Likely to be Long Road.” Now that NYT’s credibility has taken a shot, it looks like WaPo is trying to be the “Newspaper of Record” on the Plame Affair.
But I am confused, and perhaps some of the more informed posters can address this little matter that’s been eating at me. If Plame worked on issues of non-proliferation of WMD, and WMD was the initial reason for invading Iraq, then why destroy that network? Out of Scooter’s hatred of the CIA? That doesn’t make sense to me (I know, not everything needs to make sense but still…). Did they (WHIG) know that WMD would never be found in Iraq? So the loss of Plame’s network would preserve the neocon’s case for war, and ensure that Plame/CIA would never go public with evidence to the contrary. Was the leak, then designed to destroy that network, not neccesarily just for political payback? Was destroying Brewster Jennings the neocon’s motive all along and is that where Fitz is heading? Sounds like treason to me.
Or am I going off the deep end here? It just seems like there is more to this picture than meets the eye. Maybe it was a twofer; fuck Wilson and fuck Brewster Jennings.
Reddhedd’s right, the WaPo article just raises more questions than answers (and it’s makin’ my brain hurt).
About that Rove email, this article says that Levine immediately went up to Rove’s office after getting the email. So IMHO, this email does not help Rove. They could have talked about Plame at the meeting, with both of them denying it.
In my opinion, Fitzgerald has set out the framework of his investigation. His tone and demeanor at the press conference suggest to the multitudes clamoring for swift justice, have patience.
I’d bet the sheer amount of tips and evidence pouring into Fitz’s office from civil servants outraged at this administration’s behavior in the last 5 years is staggering.
Porter Goss is embroiled in a massive exodus of “lifers” at the CIA. Ashcroft and Gonzales are perceived as cronies with political agendas. The people who have dedicated their lives to fighting crime and upholding justice are probably furious with their leaders.
I have a feeling that the DOJ is going to expose the corruption across the board in the GOP. I also have a feeling that you will see a major shift in the GOP on Capitol Hill in less than six months. The “dog pile” on the Bush Administration has officially began.
I’ve been waiting five long years…
At this point- I don’t believe that Plame Gate has created a political watershed moment that would cause people to vote against goopers in 06.
Individual candidates can distance themselves from what Scooter did.
To create a watershed moment- we need to have americans saying:
“We need the other party in control for the last two years of the Bush administration to oversee the White House- the risk of corruption is too great and goopers will never provide any oversight”.
We aren’t there yet- and perhaps we won’t be.
First of all, I’d like to compliment you on this website/blog. It’s intellitgent, thought-provoking and I’m becoming addicted to it…
Secondly, it’s been interesting to read the various opinions as to whether there are more of ‘them’ or ‘us.’ Statistically speaking, there are far more ‘us’ than there are ‘them.’
HOWEVER…the only numbers that count are those who vote. And the reality of it is that ‘THEY’ have a much better voting record than do ‘WE.’ Their ministers tell them that God wants them to vote and they go and they vote. They take buses, they take whole nursing homes, they take everyone connected with their various ‘faith based initiatives.’ When you combine that with the very probable voting irregularities that have taken place in both 2000 and 2004…this is what you get.
It’s wonderful fun to talk about the first real accountability for this corrupt cabal of corporate criminals controlling ‘us’…but, I truly believe we MUST do a better job of framing the issues and getting the message to people that a ‘majority controlled democracy’ does NOT work when you have less than a MAJORITY EVEN PARTICIPATING IN THE PROCESS…
That’s the real problem here…
I think there is a much simpler way to conclude that Judy Miller’s Aspens and Jackson Hole comment is bullshit…
She says that he identified himself as “Scooter Libby”. Was that because he wanted to differentiate himself from Scooter Jones or Scooter Smith?
How many “Scooters” do you all know?
Overnight I has the NPR stream running and they are replaying the Fitz statement and press conference a bunch. What struck me is that it seemed that Fitz was very clear – he spoke several times of “pausing and taking a breath” and I think this indictment is his pause.
The frenzy of last week about numbers of indictments and all takes attention away from the orderly process of law which I think is his prime object. People keep pointing out that he is not political, etc but then we expect him to speak/act in a highly partisan way and that’s not going to happen. I think he used Friday to take all sides to school and give a lesson in the importance of perjury, false statement and obstruction. Given the Kaye Bailey Hutchinson attempt (along with the Clinton era dem arguments) to dismiss the importance of truthfulness in testimony, I think Fitz wanted to underline the central necessity for truthfulness and proper legal conduct.
Using his high visibility on Friday to make the case for the legal process and demonstrating that he was not a wild-eyed partisan lawyer, he is in a much stronger position to bring more serious charges. He gave a first act performance that demonstrated his balance, knowledge and respect for the law. People saw that, were impressed by it and will not forget.
Now, if he can make the case for conspiracy, espionage or outing charges -and/or if he can bring a case against Cheney or Rove or Bush himself, he is in a much stronger position to do so.
A couple of thoughts: Libby is 55, IIRC, and so serving just 15 years, not 30, he’s 70 when he gets out. 70 looks pretty old to me (and I’m 65). That’s a LONG sentence in terms of its effect on his life.
Second, I posted this on my blog but thought I’d share here:
There’s a self-defense training program for women called “Model Mugging.” The idea is that fully padded and protected men will initiate a physical attack on the woman, who’s trained to respond in a variety of ways and with full force–so they know what it feels like. Each of the instructors is knocked unconscious 2-3 times a year.
I once attended a graduation program at a Model Mugging class and it was impressive. The program started with the observation that the average rapist has committed 27 rapes or attempted rapes, and the average victim has never been previously raped. So, with experience level 27 vs. experience level 0, it’s no contest: the victim is overwhelmed.
In the course of the Model Mugging training, each woman is subjected to at least 49 simulated assaults: direct attacks, attacks from behind, attacks in bed, and so on.
So if a program graduate is ever actually attacked, the attacker is on the short end: experience level 49 vs. experience level 27. No contest, to such a degree that in one actual event a subway attacker tried later to sue the woman for the bodily injuries he sustained as she defended herself.
Well, look at poor old Scooter. His experience in being indicted and tried for a felony offense: zero. But Fitzpatrick has done this hundreds of time and knows by years of experience what the perp is thinking, what his unindicted colleagues are thinking, what the pressures are, and what to expect: experience level several hundred vs. experience level zero. No contest.
“Bush losing faith in Cheney, top aides”
I don’t think there are too many people left, even the legendary citizens of Peoria, who, after this week, believe that Bush, and not Cheney, is the president.
The long, short and medium of this week’s news, even for the mortgage-paying, too-busy-to-follow, Joe or Jane Average: President Cheney Screwed Up.
Safire on MTP: “it’s a (mere) perjury charge over a non-crime…” “Fitzgerald has now CONCLUDED that there was no outing consiracy…”
Right.
Brooks on MTP: “…we now see that there IS NO ‘cancer on the Presidency’…”
Right.
. . . .
MSNBC: Does what is contained in this five-count indictment collide on its face with anything the vice president said to you at a later date, as a guest on your broadcast “Meet the Press”?
Russert: Well, I asked him in September of 2003 about Joseph Wilson. He said he did not know Joseph Wilson, and he went on to say he did not know who sent Joe Wilson to Africa or authorized the trip.
I do not know what the special counsel says the vice president told Scooter Libby in June, if anything. I only know what a published report of that conversation said in the New York Times last week.
It would be unfair to make a judgment now. But clearly that program will be scrutinized.
But, as you know, it is not a crime to say misleading things on “Meet the Press” or other interview programs. It is a crime to say misleading or false things under oath.
–Tim Russert, October 28, 2005
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5961048/
Ok, I’m headed to DC from NY, driving.
Won’t be around for the rest of the day.
Be well!
Pacifica: I agree the Sundays shows have importance.
They package the conventional wisdom and conventional terms of current debates.
By so doing, they tend to solidify one national narrative (i. e., Deam are weak weenies, Republicans are tough and in charge, OR Republicans are corrupt and failing, Dems are on the rise, etc.).
But they are fundamentally reactive. They follow power.
My point is that they are beginning to follow us, and so our take on civil life is filtering steadily into the conventional wisdom they masticate and bulimically purge on Sunday mornings.
If you connect this with the Sy Hersh revelation that the Niger was a CIA setup, you can see how Cheney was out-Cheneyed by the CIA! The’ll be dancing at the Agency when the Unk resigns!
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9865902/site/newsweek/
Front Cover of Newsweek:
“Cheney’s Man”
The lead story is titled: “Flying Blind”
“Either someone got to Fitzy and scared him off the substantive charge- or he wants to let the more serious charge “mature” for a while while he digs for more information.”
MHO, if somebody scared him off this charge he wouldn’t have put info in the indictment that Cheney and Libby knew plame’s position was classified and mention Libby’s NDA.
Why was that in there? (I am wondering out loud. I know only Fitzgerald and his staff know the answer)
Fitzgerald said it out-loud on TV: the questions he is facing include whether Libby, and others, actually intended the damage that was caused. Why indeed? More at http://amendmentnine.blogspot.com.
Any more word on what Rove did last week? I thought it was clear that Rove told Fitzgerald something at the last minute that caused Fitzgerald to take more time…. the visit to the Wilson’s neighbors was probably related to whatever Rove said, for example.
Have any “Sources familiar with Rove’s contacts with Fitzgerald” shed any light on this question today?
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20…..1030162002
“Bush losing faith in Cheney, top aides”
“WASHINGTON (AFP) – President George W. Bush’s confidence in his top team of advisors, including all-important vice president Dick Cheney, has fallen sharply in the wake of the CIA leak scandal.
In the wake of Friday’s indictment of Cheney’s top advisor for lying to a grand jury over the case, Bush’s faith in his own top aides Karl Rove and Andrew Card, as well as Cheney, has dropped, Time magazine reported Sunday.
“He’s lost some of his confidence in the three people he listens to the most,” Time quoted an unnamed White House adviser as saying.
“The problem is that the President doesn’t want to make changes,” the source said.”
You know you can email: president@whitehouse.gov
I myself wish fervently, like many others, that Firedoglake could have a TV show, a visual version of these blogs if you will, complete with the legal eagles and actual documentation like you provide here. I know it has been suggested many times but I can wish can’t I? *wink*
The media has lost so much credibility that it will take a show like that to begin to restore some honor, point out accountability of politicians and journalists, and more importantly provide some authoritive clear voices to explain the ‘rule of law’ to the general public. Bloviating talking heads are so last week.
But since we don’t have a TV show, three months ago I bought some VoIP chatroom software (voice, video, text, lobby, room webpage browser, room moderator abilities, etc.) and internet radio broadcasting/recording software, to install on a website I’ve been building in another field of interest now that I’m retired. This last couple months have made me entirely shift my focus, ideas, and priorities.
I would rather now develope it instead to allow a mainly audio forum in general for us that we can also use to record ’special sessions’ (with video if desired) to archive, and release to other outlets if we can or want to. Maybe it will be a small step towards educating even more people in a multimedia realistic manner that they are going to be craving for more of, which definitely started last Friday if I’m perceiving the new moral compass that America has suddenly been realigned to.
I want to do something, anything, everything that I can do to help get your knowledge out there and enlighten people. I’m willing to donate my software I have now to this cause and do what we can to gradually upgrade it to as professional a level of components as possible that we can get our hands on. Even a one hour a week ’show’ is one more hour than we have now right? Is anyone interested in this idea or have any suggestions?
I agree that we should take a deep breath and be patient. We have all been concentrating on what the indictment revealed about the OVP since the indictment came out. It’s like looking into a murky pond – what’s clearly visible is on the surface. That doesn’t mean that Fitzgerald doesn’t have evidence of a lot of yucky stuff – we’re just not privy to it yet.
Just think of all the facts disclosed in the indictment that we were previously unaware of – especially the specific, repeated efforts by various people working in OVP to get information about Wilson’s wife. (Amazing, really, how long it took them to get the goods on someone whose status they claim was open knowledge.) When you put those efforts together with what is already public knowledge, it seems clear that those efforts (maybe conspiracy) reached into the White House.
According to news articles, on July 11, 2003, Tenet was working with Hadley and Rove on his mea culpa for failing to remove the 16 words from BushÂ’s state of the union address. In his statement that day, Tenet pointed the finger in PlameÂ’s direction. He said, “In an effort to inquire about certain reports involving Niger, CIA’s counter-proliferation experts, on their own initiative, asked an individual with ties to the region to make a visit to see what he could learn.” Earlier that same day, Rice said in a press gaggle (while on Bush’s African trip), “And you should ask the Agency at what level it [WilsonÂ’s trip] was known in the Agency.” When those hints werenÂ’t enough, Libby called Cooper and Miller the next day.
While I would love to see charges of conspiracy against the big guys (Rove, Libby, Cheney at the very least), the story is coming out regardless. A fair number of those who can shed some light on the story are no longer government employees and have begun to talk. We have factions at the White House, OVP, State Department and CIA warring with each other and trying to save their skins and/or reputations. This isnÂ’t just about Plame or the forged Niger documents or even the war, anymore. The indictment has given the press the opportunity, without having to fear charges of partisanship, to pull back the curtain on how this administration works. The story is now about the abuse and corruption of power, and itÂ’s not going away. I have the popcorn ready – I just wish I could afford some good champagne. (Sorry the post is so long – I got carried away.)
Me –
Thanks. Doesn’t make me feel better about CT, but raises my estimation of Danforth.
The fact is I posted something, a lot of things as it turned out, that really pissed you off. If you had not told me, I would have kept doing it, so I am glad you told me. The issues we fundamentally disagree about are not fundamentally the issues that bring me to this board.
John Casper | 10.30.05 – 9:57 am | #
I agree stay clear of that topic please. It is not germane to this forum and I fail to see why you posted on it. The history of Christianity, both in how Christian Churches’ followers treat each other and those who follow other religions and none is blood stained and disgusting enough already without yet more fuel of “I despise you because of what you are” being added to it.
I see nothing other than a difference of degree between those who write it and those who act upon those writings.
I will add that having had experience of living in non-Christian lands and now of living in a post-Christian one that I prefer the approach of judging people by what they do.
Pachacutec – The end game is as much about changing the way Americans think (and vote) as it is about getting indictments and putting people in jail. Shows like Meet the Press are very powerful in shaping public opinion, even if they do not drive the course of this case in the legal system.
This point was really driven home to me during Katrina. I spent a weekend out of town with my well-educated, democratic parents who are retired and active in current events. The weekend started out with my father defending the administration’s response to Katrina… until he watched Meet the Press on Sunday morning. Then his opinion changed completely.
I think the majority of Americans are closer to my Dad than to those of us glued to FDL. Even the outing of the NYTimes has not had a significant impact on the average person’s reliance on MSM to shape their opinions.
A couple of questions for the lawyers:
1. What percentage of indictments such as obstruction of justice, perjury, false statements, etc. result in trials vs. plea bargins?
I can not imagine a situation where Cheney, Rove, etc. get called to testify in a Libby trial with Fitz holding all the cards.
2. Could the authenticty of the Niger documents become part of a Libby trial (what did you know and when did you know it)?
“Did Danforth *really* think he was doing the right thing? “
Everybody makes mistakes, Danforth and Thomas go way way back. I honestly think Danforth thought he was doing the right thing.
It is crucial that we get a charge of at least releasing classified information into the court system. It is the only charge that leads up the White House steps.
Fitzy knows that-
He is either afraid of the consequences of threatening a sitting government- or he is waiting for more ammo.
]It would be easy to get afraid of opening Pandora’s box. Hope he’s up to it.
“Either someone got to Fitzy and scared him off the substantive charge- or he wants to let the more serious charge “mature” for a while while he digs for more information.”
I think Fitz is holding back the big charge so he can use it in conjunction with a conspiracy charge. There is no sense making the charge against one person in the case if several people are involved. Better to hold back, get an airtight conspiracy charge set up, and hit em all with it at the same time.
Totally OT, re: Danforth, feel free to skip:
Me – I’m catching up on today’s posts and just read your 7:44, in which you talk of knowing Danforth.
Of late he’s struck me as a man of both genuine faith and integrity. I’ve been trying to jibe that with his role in shepherding onto the Supreme Court a man of such questionable qualifications and candor as Clarence Thomas. (I don’t think Anita Hill was lying.) Any take on this? Did Danforth *really* think he was doing the right thing?
I don’t mean to start up a digressive thread here, just would like Me’s brief take, then let’s leave it and continue with the *current* scandal.
I agree Pacha – The Dems appear to be building bridges in Congress and we are seeing a more unified message coming from the combined forces here:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/200…..h_leak1_dc
“WASHINGTON (Reuters) – U.S. President George W. Bush, whose top adviser Karl Rove remains in jeopardy in a CIA-leak probe, needs to shake up his White House staff if he hopes to revive a presidency reeling from multiple setbacks, Republican and Democratic lawmakers said on Sunday.
The lawmakers also urged Bush to investigate the office of Vice President Dick Cheney, whose chief of staff, Lewis Libby, resigned on Friday and was indicted on perjury and other charges in connection with the probe. Bush should take Cheney “to the woodshed” if necessary, one lawmaker said.”
It takes the politicos time to react. They have to examine their positions, read the writing on the wall, and build coalitions. I actually see this process underway.
The interesting question to me is why in the hell Fitzy didn’t indict scooter on the charge of releasing classified information.
Fitzy says that it was because Scooter obsured his INTENT with a variety of “dust throwing” – so Fitzy decided to indict him for throwing the dust- which is just as serious a crime.
What about scooter’s intent is required by the statute that Fitzy mentioned and not contained as fact in the indictment Fitzy produced?
We know where the information came from and what was done with it. We know that it was classified information etc.
Either someone got to Fitzy and scared him off the substantive charge- or he wants to let the more serious charge “mature” for a while while he digs for more information.
No telling which at this point I suppose.
Harry: not a lawyer, so take my response with due caution. . .
The civil suit, assuming it proceeds and is not ground into dust by delays and expensive legal fees, gaurantees that the relevant issues and players get a public hearing.
In that sense, if “what we want” is sunshine and the political discrediting of the conservative movement, then we will likely get it.
The fact that a civil suit brings sunshine to the story materially mitigates the value of the pardon, since the pardon is esentially used to bury the story, and bury the truth.
Alice: better for the Dems not to get too far ahead on that front. Fitzy is doing fine. But the more they publicly squawk, the more Fitzy seems like a partisan tool, the more his credibility and the legal process are compromised.
I think they are managing the right balance so far, in my opinion.
One other quick observation:
All these MSM stories highlighting Cheney, Prince of Darkness are also, by implication, Empty Suit stories.
Heh.
A two-fer.
RedHead I hope you are right, because if those responsible do no jail time it will be a very serious thing for our country.
I am still angry with Democrats for not speaking out about this. You do not need an indictment to call for someone’s resignation. They should have brought it up every Sunday morning TV show, whether or not they were asked about it, it should have been front and center in the Presidential election, shame on my party.
Libby children note: he lives with this wife and two sons. She is a former staff attorney for Sen. Joe Biden, so I doubt that one of his kids is 27. I’m betting that they are nearing teen years. Teen years angst: will my dad go to prison?
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Dan Robinson | 10.30.05 – 9:31 am | #
Thanks for more facts —
ReddHedd — The indent / blockquote is fine; the problem is the italics. My tired old eyes can’t handle them, except for a word or two.
And, as a popcorn eating blogaholic, I almost never click through to the source links. That’s what blogs are for — pre-digestion of the most nourishing tidbits. Four years ago, I was a lefty news digest surfer, but the pithy and timely comments on blogs have saved me from WaPo and NYT drudgery.
On the other hand, Barton Gellman rocks — so maybe I’ll click through.
It was Barton Gellman who wrote the first “Bush was warned about 9/11″ article in May of 2002. That media feeding frenzy led to Karl Rove losing the red herring Power Point. It was a brilliant gambit, since the MSM talking heads were all distracted. Here is the link and key graf:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..May16.html
Tenet had been “nearly frantic” with concern since June 22, according to one frequent interlocutor, and a written intelligence summary for national security adviser Condoleezza Rice said on June 28: “It is highly likely that a significant al Qaeda attack is in the near future, within several weeks.” By late summer, one senior political appointee said, Tenet had “repeated this so often that people got tired of hearing it.”
SO — Tenet was nearly frantic, but Karl Rove and the Preznit were bored by his warnings.
Don’t sweat the morning show asshats.
They are, by definition, products of the establishment.
But we are driving this sled now. They are following us on the story, because we have the facts on our side. Finally, the facts have driven the polls which drive the politics which drive the coverage.
I watched This Weak and Press the Meat. Even Broder had to fret that Bush is tanking.
Once they see Harry Reid, Chuck Schumer and Howard Dean get the Dems in greater order to mount a more effective opposition while proposing a reform agenda for 2006, the lapdogs of power will begin to sense the sea change, for real.
Just a quick question: isn’t it true that the overwhelming majority of lawyers and prosecutors who have followed this case and examined Fitzgerald’s indictments expect much more to happen?
I can’t think of a single bit of legal commentary I’ve read that doesn’t reinforce the impression that the White House can expect more indictments.
“Some observers wondered last week why a bright lawyer like Libby bothered with a cover story at all. The indictment offers scant evidence that Libby knew Plame was a covert officer, a key test in the 1982 law barring such disclosures. By that logic, Libby could have told the truth about everything he did and still avoided criminal exposure. But other lawyers pointed out that it’s easy to forget that Fitzgerald hasn’t made public everything he knows. The two senior officials who discussed Plame’s employment with Libby may have testified that they warned Libby about the secret nature of her work. “Some things,” said a lawyer for one witness, “come out only at trial.”
Fitz has put a cold chisel into the crack he opened in this investigation. I do believe he intends to prosecute this personally. He will get the case cracked.
1) Libby takes some time with his family and his attorney and decides to take a deal for a reduced prison sentance…
or
2) Fitz plays hardball in the public venue of the courtroom. Hammering into the cracks with pressing, dead on questions under oath. Questions he already knows the answers to.
Libby is in a very, very tight spot. It is unthinkable he will get any early pardon, and he literally risks the rest of his life on a pardon at all. Bush would not cry a tear is he stayed silent and died behind bars. Hehehe he could promise Libby the earth, moon and the stars themselves… But Libby knows as well as you and I that Bush is just as much of a liar as Libby is…
Spin and lies are great tools in politics, but when you break the law and get caught by the tale… All the spinning and lying in the world will not get you out of jail.
Reality has to be sinking in. Libby will be inducted into the criminal court system as a perp very soon. To date his attorney has been practically useless against Fitz.
He is in a bad, bad way… He is no longer a leading War Lord for Democracy… No longer the super sluth with a high access security clearance. He has been exposed, busted and cut off at the knees…
Sometimes it takes seeing the inside of the cell, the stainless steel toilet, green balogna for lunch… Before perps come to their senses.
Libby will figure it out eventually. At some point he will come around, this experience, this hard encounter with reality, will break him eventually.
Can somebody answer this question please. If Libby cops a plea, he’ll help Cheney et al. avoid cross examination under oath on the motives for going to war. But if he does do this, isn’t he exposing himself to a civil suit from the Wilsons which will mean the same cast of characters dragged into the witness box, except in a civil trial ? So really, we’re going to get what we want one way or another. Or maybe not. Can Jane or RedHedd explain this to us please ?
dubhaltach:
I just read your final comments on the previous thread.
IMO, I do not think anything you say is going to change my mind, nor anything I say will change your’s.
The fact is I posted something, a lot of things as it turned out, that really pissed you off. If you had not told me, I would have kept doing it, so I am glad you told me. The issues we fundamentally disagree about are not fundamentally the issues that bring me to this board.
With regard to Libby’s refusal of the deal because it required “serious” jail time: it’s a serious crime. These imperious bastards lied about the reasons for war, and when an individual told the truth about it, they tried to crush him and his family by lying some more.
Libby can reflect on that while he is doing a 5 year bit at Dannemora.
-
I recall reading that ScootyPoo has one teenage child and another who is 3 or 4.
One point that I don’t think people are seeing and should hold the Preznit and any other political figure in DC accountable for regarding the indictment of Libby is that the lawsuit is being brought against Libby by the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, as in United States of America v. I. Lewis Libby.
If the Justice Department can take sides by indicting Libby – it clearly believe crimes have been committed – why doesn’t someone ask the Preznit if he thinks the Justice Department is wrong, or why he isn’t supporting the Justice Department’s investigation about any and all of Traitorgate, and the prosecution of Libby, or firing those who are not cooperating with the investigation. I would bet that Preznit is on record against all of the large scale corporate crimes that have recently been prosecuted, and other DoJ investigations and prosecutions (I assume that he is, even if he doesn’t mean it). The President represents the United States and the Justice Department’s lawyers are the United State’s lawyers. Does the Preznit in those instances say that, well, let’s remember they are innocent until proven guilty? Why should Preznit (and Cheney and Rove, et al.) get a pass on this, or are all MSM journalists/talking heads just so part of the conspiracy that they don’t get it.
I’m in the middle of reading the article now, but as an Alum Watergate, I had to post this quote as it seems incredibly ironic.
Remember , Watergate started as a bungled burglary of the DNC at the Watergate Hotel, and the organier of that was a man named
LIDDY
Redd: Another question! When Fitz squeezed David Radner in the Hollinger affair — what did he get out of him? Did he finger Conrad Black? Richard Perle? Do we know yet?
Thanks! Michael
Redd: Is it possible that Fitz has some sealed indictments in his back pocket? Or is there some procedure that he was obligated to follow that would have “revealed” their existence [but not their substance]?
Thanks for all your great work, btw!
Thanks coffeecup ~ agreed. And this subject of “how many ARE there really” speaks I think, to the erroneous *perceptions* that the overall inept bent of the MSM for the past few years has fostered; I’d sure rather think that the minds out there that GET this blog, and intelligent satire and humor of the likes of Jon Stewart ~ ultimately outnumber the “Jesus and Fox is All” mentality out there ….
Thanks to Mr. Fitzgerald, perhaps that bent on the part of the media is finally going to begin to change……..
Haig needs to be put out to pasture. He’s lost it, and I don’t mean that figuratively.
CNN should be embarrassed to have put someone in his condition on the air.
Anyone else just watch Alexander Haig on Wolf Blitzer’s program?
He tried to drag out the “Joe Wilson is just as much to blame for outing his wife” line. Wolf didn’t give him a pass and hit back at him twice trying to get him to clarify. Haig folded.
Haig has that distant, dull eyed look of someone who is heavily medicated and/or very old. Well, we know he’s very old.
Weak sauce, Haig.
-Monk
Bushlicker Spin Battalion out in full assault mode this morning.
Safire on MTP: “it’s a (mere) perjury charge over a non-crime…” “Fitzgerald has now CONCLUDED that there was no outing consiracy…”
Right.
Brooks on MTP: “…we now see that there IS NO ‘cancer on the Presidency’…”
Right.
And doughboy Russert lets ‘em off the hook on those beg-offs
My Sunday paper lead editorial says basically the same thing, throwing up the “Martha Stewart” banality by way of lame analogy.
And, oh, these Very Busy, Very Important People Selflessly Serving The Nation simply cannot be expected to have perfect memories over time. This is nothing more than a dispute over imperfect recollections (Libby’s lawyer).
Right.
Keep the pressure relentlessly on these criminally conspiratorial pukes.
—
Thank you Rh and JH, too. Your blog is a must-read for me!
This post highlights a question I had: How does someone find out what a NOC does? I can see WH people asking the CIA ‘what exactly does Valerie Plame do? and not getting a good answer.
I had thought that the WH people would try every avenue until they got all of the info they could on Plame.
From this article and the original NYT on Cheney told Libby, I think that the big deal about Cheney telling Libby is that Cheney is the one that found out what Plame did. Maybe it took a VP to get the CIA to tell.
Libby children note: he lives with this wife and two sons. She is a former staff attorney for Sen. Joe Biden, so I doubt that one of his kids is 27. I’m betting that they are nearing teen years. Teen years angst: will my dad go to prison?
-
artoblast and Susan — I live a half block from the Southern Baptist Seminary and a block from Al Moeller’s house. He’s the right wing evangelical president of the SBS and has appeared on national tv spouting his idiotic ideology. The SBS is a tiny school. In my neighborhood (which is lovely, btw), there are no fewer than 4 lesbian couples — all of them out and politically active (including me and my partner). The city council member of this area is also a lesbian. My city and county went for Kerry last time. What I’m saying is that there is this impression that the wingers are bigger than what they are. They have money, good media people and PR, but I’m not convinced there are more of them than us. That isn’t the case where I live — and I am literally in the backyard of one of the centers of the evangelical right.
ck – one thing you might find helpful is to use the firefox browser all you have to do is hold down the key marked Ctrl and press the + key to get the text to a legible size.
Reddhedd the code that controls how the blockquoute element behaves is in the css files. Blockquote by convention is indented so it might be better to just not use blockquote and use italics instead looking at the code you have a blockquote element surrounding and italics element.
There are I’m sure lots of people here who can explain it much better than me.
Hope this helps
An unidentified “senior officer of the CIA” confirmed Plame’s employment for Libby on June 11, and Cheney told Libby the next day which part of the agency employed her.
I think this is a critical piece of evidence. Mx Plame worked in ploriferation, which was not the analysts side of the CIA but the covert part. BOTH of them knew that, thus they knew she was a covert agent!
Oh, and ck, I got myself a Rival (I think?) popcorn popper for the microwave. Uses very little oil, and regular old popcorn kernals. Pops up nice and fluffy, and I can then add melted butter to my satisfaction. Very tasty, easy to clean — and no trans-fatty crap. I think I found mine at WalMart or KMart or something. Just think of this as my popcorn hint for the day. ;-)
ck — I’ll try to do that next article. I’m still getting the hang of HTML, since starting to blog with Jane, but I think I know what to do to kill the indent.
Two Points: first, after making some old fashion hot air popcorn last week (with real butter) I’ve decided that microwave popcorn is part of a BushCo GOP plot to get us to drop dead of heart disease before we turn 65 — so they can steal our Social Security without consequence.
Second: could you quote articles with paragraph indent only? The italics are hard to read.
I also heard on TV this morning that most people will have forgot this in 6 months, that should tell the dum dums how far out of “Leftfield” ( heehee as in”dirt in your eyes” )THEY REALLY ARE.
I heard a friend of his say that Libby had young children. I agree that part of the story is what this is going to do to Libby’s family. If Libby is protecting Cheney at the expense of his children, that doesn’t say anything good about Libby. If it is true, it is also an insight into Cheney’s “character”. Cheney and Libby were very close. It looks to me like Cheney is letting Libby take a very serious fall rather than coming clean and allowing Libby tell the truth about what he (Libby) did and why he did it.
ReddHedd, I waz sceptical early on when ya waz waxin’ all poetic about Fitz’s supernatural powers and integrity but not anymore. I think his droppin’ this indictment in the middle a the pond and then sittin back and watchin’ the ripples expand out in every direction is brilliant. The political physics of this thing are gunna mitigate against early pardons and as long as Fitz ken keep the velocity goin’ toward a trial, we’re gunna see the whole lot of these rats bitin’ on each other more an more each day.
Please do a little entry here to try and calm the cynics and doom and gloomers who are sayin’ “nobody’s going to do any time over this …it will just get pardoned under the rug”.
“The majority of the talking heads today keep implying that the investigation is over, and that these are all the indictments Fitz was able to get.
How are they misreading this so badly?”
Because they are implicated. These are the same talking heads that helped the WHIG sell the war in Iraq to the American people.
The truth is really hard for some people to accept. Fitz threw out a bone to take the media heat off of him, and get some progress in the case… The talking heads who are damned near as guilty as the WH (they are truly complicit) are running with the scrap thrown to them and ignoring the banquet about to be laid out in the legal realm.
Alice — I think Sheldon should be more patient. If Fitzgerald had been done, he would have said so. As he did not, and he certainly seems like the sort of fellow that you can take at his word, I would say that everyone needs to keep their powder dry. Libby can be charged in a second indictment, along with anyone else, should Fitz obtain the nec essary evidence to do so. It’s done all the time in conspiracy, racketeering and other complex multi-person cases. And that’s Fitz’s specialty. I think we all need to follow his advice and take a deep breath — and realize that sometimes when you are hunting, patience can be a great asset.
arbogast, this “is” something I’m gonna weigh in on with more than a joke, because I do feel like I can offer something other than babble; I live in a very conservative area of No. California – but I’m a transplant from the S. F. Bay Area. Many of the friends I’ve made up here now are conservative politically, and good Christian church go’ers. But guess what? They’re not immune to a different perspective gradually oozing its way into their consciousness; I’ve been doing it. After two and a half years up here, those that have gotten to know me…being me….I find are questioning “why” I hold the beliefs I do ~ it’s facinating, and gives me some hope ~ to see them actually begin to question their dogma.
Oh, of course there are the “radicals” as there are with any ideology, religious or political group ~ but my point is I don’t agree with your statement that the Cathy Bhiler’s of this country are in the majority in the U.S. right now. They are perhaps more strident and visible and vocal; but they’re sheep…and if they are finally exposed to more than the pabulum of Fox News and the Evangelical Rights blather ~ if a more sane and intelligent discourse can FINALLY get more airtime and rise out of the MSM in this country over Plamegate….I have to believe there is some hope over time (sure isn’t gonna happen over night unfortunately) for this country.
What, if anything, do you make of Sheldon Drobny’s view that Fitzgerald fumbled the ball and could have charged under the espionage act?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/….._9795.html
This is depressing. I’m watching Meet the Press and they are writing this off saying that there was no crime and that BushCo is clean. They played the soundbite from Fitz where he says that no underlying crime is charged in the indictment. And not one of them questioned this.
Large bag of popcorn? Check.
Butter, salt, parmesan? Check.
Champagne chilled? Check.
Must get backup bottle of bubbly, another may be needed as this plays out. :)
“In addition, Cathy Bihler is in the majority in the United States right now.”
That is so much bullhockey arbogast, they are not in the majority. They simply have been screeming louder than anyone else, and it gives the impression there are more of them.
I have a good civil war story… True… Which I can give you as an example.
A small company of Union infantry came upon a Confederate fort. The fort was manned with 300 soldiers, they had water, supplies, weapons, ammunition and a fortified postion. The Union soliders were outmanned 10 to 1.
The Union company commander wanted to take the fort. He ordered his solider to spread out around the fort during the night to build numerous campfires, make lots of noise, laugh and sing. 30 men spent the entire night literally running from one fire to the next throwing on wood and making a ruckus.
From inside the fort, it looked at if 3000 men had surrounded them. They heard bugles calling from all around and could see big encampments.
The next morning a platoon of exhausted Union soldiers rode up to the fort under a flag of truce and accepted the Confederate surrender.
So there is your majority. Give up and go home already.
The majority of the talking heads today keep implying that the investigation is over, and that these are all the indictments Fitz was able to get.
How are they misreading this so badly? I’m not a lawyer, but I can read the documents and see all kinds of problems for people in the Bush regime.
“Fitzgerald, in his news conference, said he could not speculate on whether anyone else would be charged. He said “the substantial bulk of the work of this investigation has concluded,” but not all of it.“
(that’s from the WaPo article Redd linked)
This morning I woke up to my (KnightRidder) Sunday newspaper, and on the front page saw “Libby indictment raises questions about Cheney, other officials“.
The entire article concerns Cheney’s uncertain status. I think this fact is creeping into the public consciousness.
Â
“Of course, any plea bargain also has the potential to endanger higher-level officials like Cheney, who is mentioned more than once in the indictment. Fitzgerald’s document notes, for example, that Libby flew with Cheney on July 12 to Norfolk, Va., and discussed with some officials on the return trip how to handle the Cooper inquiry—an indication that Fitzgerald has reason to at least investigate a conspiracy that might involve the Vice President. Rove too could be ensnared if Libby cuts a deal. “
From the Time Mag link posted above by gottaknow ;)
Do people want to argue that Cheney is not feeling heat…? Or that Fitz is not very, very close to being able to charge for a broader conspiracy? The evidence is right there in front of us.
He has been described as having two children. I haven’t seen their ages. What part of the lives of his children is he willing to miss to protect Cheney?
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Dan Robinson | 10.30.05 – 8:21 am | #
I seem to remember in a previous post from several days ago, that someone stated his two children were in their 20s — one 27, I think.
I think it is incredibly important to revisit Cathy Bihler’s contribution to the comments to the previous post.
She enunciated a view that is historically far more mainstream than anything on this blog: namely that those that do not believe in Christ should be invaded, tortured, and murdered until they do.
Western civilization, so-called, has undertaken that “mission” far more often in the past than anything else. It is the mainstream of history.
In addition, Cathy Bihler is in the majority in the United States right now.
So, I would say that the burden on Patrick Fitzgerald’s shoulders is immense. I hope the spirit of the Jesuits is particularly strong in him. God bless him.
NYBri,
I thought Fitz was very clear on Friday:
1. Investigate the facts.
2. Decide if we have enough evidence to obtain a conviction.
3. Decide if the person should be prosecuted.
Man, he’s cool!
NYBri — Fitz will enforce the law. That is the extent of his job, and the limit of his mandate. But that doesn’t mean that is the end of all of this — since all this information is in the public domain on how this WH has operated, just from this one indictment, a whole lot of political pressure can be brought to bear on them coming clean about this. Period. If they do, that also helps Ftiz in his investigations. If they don’t, then they look like even worse smarmy, lying, manipulators. Either way, this needs to be worked on both the legal and public fronts until we are all satisfied with the answers we get.
Good government depends on transparency and the ethics of those decent people who work within it. Rotten apples should never be allowed to spoil any part of the barrel. I’m still hoping for a wholesale cleaning — and the way things are looking in the media this morning, inlcuding with a lot of disgusted right-wing pundits — we have a chance to get at least part of one if the momentum keeps building.
:yawn:
Good morning.
:coffee sip:
Sunday morning talk shows are noticeably absent of any real names discussing the libby matter.
I would’ve thought the full court press from the right would be on this morning trying to throw water on this fire. Not happening.
Are they also waiting for the other boot to drop?
Now, on to Redd’s article.
-Monk
Man, the more I read the indictment, the more confused I am that there wasn’t a bag of them handed up.
Another point…with all the talk about Fitz “getting” this person and “getting” that one, I don’t think Fitz is out to “get” anyone. He doesn’t seem to have an agenda other than to find the truth. I think he understands the importance of the crime, but also of the seriousness of far reaching charges…so I think he is going to give out lots of slack on this one.
Will you take a look at this article?
From the Magazine | Nation
Fall Of A Vulcan
How a very smart and very loyal aide to Dick Cheney got indicted for allegedly lying
http://www.time.com/time/magaz…..-1,00.html
…deal was scotched because the prosecutor insisted that Libby do some “serious” jail time
Thanks.
Glad you looked at this article, RH. It’s a doozy (and damnit, Typepad is killing me today).
Two comments, though. First, I am absolutely certain that Grossman is in no legal jeopardy here. He’s a likely Wilson ally (indeed, is a good candidate to be one of the people Wilson contacted before he went public, such as the Senior State Department Official who told him a few days after the INR memo was written that he might have to write his own article). And he hasn’t done anything wrong–Libby told him to give him a briefing, and he did it. It’s not even clear he showed Libby the INR memo.
Also, Grossman’s not an intelligence officer. He’s a retired diplomat. I think the intelligence officer is someone from CIA, probably McLaughlin or Pavitt.
I ordered some popcorn from a boy scout who was selling it door-to-door. I hope it arrives in time for Fitzmas.
____ PARDONS ___
http://johnconyers.com/index.a…..74DE91D%7D
Please complete the form provided by the Hon. John Conyers above. Pass the link around.
The pressure is on the president to let the perps outted in this case to do real time in the pokey:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200…..estigation
“Reid, D-Nev., also said Bush should pledge not to pardon any aides convicted as a result of the investigation into the disclosure of CIA officer Valerie Plame’s identity.”
I hear you, W2. This is riddled with little hints and innuendos. But it makes for an awfully fun read.
There seems to be a great deal of sub-text to the sub-text. The problem with all of this is it takes away the desire to write fiction. I mean why bother when non-fiction is so damn rich.
That is a great article. I think the next step of this story will turn on Libby’s family life, how much he values it versus how much ‘honor’ he intends to uphold. He is described as a chivalrous man, e.g., standing when a lady leaves his table, but does his code contain real honor? Is he the kind of guy who will go to prison and put a lot of strain on his family to protect Dick Cheney? Does he lie to his family about this?
He has been described as having two children. I haven’t seen their ages. What part of the lives of his children is he willing to miss to protect Cheney?
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