
Fitz gave a great opener in his press conference today. It tracked the tone and the seriousness of the five count indictment issued today, and underscored just how important this case is in terms of how this case relates to national security matters and the integrity of government.
Fitz made it very clear that this case was not just about the Wilsons and people who may have disliked them — that this case was about all of our security, now and in the future. And it’s not over.
Fitz talked at length about Grand Jury secrecy, and was careful to lay out why it is that a witness in an investigation, in front of a grand jury — in any capacity throughout an investigation, but especially dealing with a matter of national security — must tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
Fitz detailed, as he did in the indictment, that Libby gave a compelling story initially to investigators — which it looks like was completely false. Instead of being at the receiving end of bits of information, Libby was the start of a long chain of information being disseminated that should not have been discussed outside the confines of people who had a need to know it for national security reasons.
My read on Fitz was that the lying makes him very, very angry. For a lot of reasons, but most of all because national security is very serious business, and Libby violated not only the legal trust and the laws, but also his fiduciary obligations as a government official in his position in doing what he did. I know it pisses me off.
One question: At least 4 people in government talked with Libby about this. Well, isn’t that interesting? The GOP talking points are going to be that Libby was stupid/idiotic/overreaching/etc., but he clearly wasn’t the only person discussing this within the government and who was he protecting by doing all of this and putting his own ass in jeopardy by testifying falsely? Big questions that I hope will be asked by the media.
It is clear from the indictment that there is an enormous amount of detail — not within the four corners of it, and held back from the rest of the investigation. Fitz is making it very clear, without being specific because he cannot be according to the law, that the investigation is ongoing. And that charges can be brought before a grand jury in DC at any time, should they be warranted.
I’ll say this: after watching Fitz, anyone who tries to raise the question of whether perjury is a “technicality” is going to end up looking like a moron. Because that clip of him explaining the importance and ethics of the rule of law in an investigation was exceptional. And the multiple allegations of false statements and testimony point to a considered pattern on the part of Libby.
This reaches to the very heart of how this Administration conducts itself. This reaches to the very heart of how they operate in shutting down any and all criticism — inside and outside the government. And there are going to be some very difficult questions for them to answer.
And Fitz is not done yet. Not by a long shot. You could see in his demeanor, and you can read it in the indictment — there is a whole lot more to this. I hope we get to know the rest soon.
(Graphics love to Corbis.com.)



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I’ve yet to see the Fitz press conference on C&L (which is how I’d found this awesome site) but from all accounts, he did acquit himself very well and outlined the charges concisely and without tipping his cards. Of course, the wingnuts on LGF are calling him an egomaniac and a glory hog and I don’t think that even 1% realize that #1, Bush appointed him and #2, special prosecutors, as with Attorneys General and District Attorneys do not hand out indictments. Grand juries do. So all these conservative wingnuts are doing is shooting the messenger.
My thoughts on the indictment are on my blog, if anyone’s interested.
i am sorry i am being misinterpreted
i did not want all
i wanted as many millions others wanted – was justice
there was no justice today
it was the pretence of justice dressed up in the finery of an obviouslly honourable man
it will not go any further & you can take that to the bank
fitzgerald sd today it will go no further – at least two times
what i wanted is what many of us want – some form of brake, some straw that will break the camels back – something that will turn the tide of terror
& make no mistake that it is a tide of terror for those living along the euphrates
the larger & more terrible truth is that there are those of us that benifit from this tife of terro while there are those like halliburtn, bechtel or rupert murdoch who actively profit from it
until the terrible tuth visits us concretely – we are not moved to act
in that case we wait for mamapoppy to resolve it for us – in this case the law, jurisprudence, the state of law – but how can this ever have any basis when this junta has done everything to defile justice
if i am angry it is at myself for having believed as tim buckley sd ‘to make it right again’ while knowing fully that jurisprudence is the digestive tract of power – it shits everything out
Anastasia –
Good points, especially about Bush’s body language.
And who had the bright idea to show him waving on the way to getting in a helicopter.
Made me all nostalgic for Tricky Dick’s bye-bye.
Sorry for the double posts! For some reason that happens when I go to reload the page, even though I haven’t written anything new.
I noticed the fact that Fitz’s voice was shaking too. My take was that he was nervous, which I think is endearing. Unlike Bush, who puffs himself up and pretends he’s strong, Fitz is the real thing.
Mrs.K8 – You mentioned something I hadn’t thought of; Fitz probably has a very good case against Libby and (hopefully) won’t be in the mood to plea bargin. Fitz doesn’t exactly seem like the type to suffer liars gladly.
Another thing that I noticed is that usually Bush puffs himself up and struts a lot when he’s feeling like he’s got an ace or two up his sleeve, but his mood seemed as black as Karl Rove’s heart for a change.
Hope Fitz holds the line.
Lawyerly niggle: There is no such legislation as the British “State Secrets Act” There is the “Official Secrets Act” originally passed in 1911 and amended since by several acts of parliament also called the “Official Secrets Act” the most recent of which passed in 1989.
o god, there are so many wusses out there! don’t lay on to us your personal emotional investments! what happened today was SIGNIFICANT! in and of itself! if you refuse to acknowledge that and insist on handwringing and singing the blues, nobody can stop you.
Pachacutec, you speak wisdom, kimosabe.
now, no matter WHAT had happened today, and no matter WHAT happens down the road on this case, or no matter WHAT happens as a result of all the burgeoning republican corruption scandals nation-wide (tobin/rnc/new hampshire; ohio coingate; abramoff/norquist/reed/delay/ney/burns/andgodknowswhoelse; sherwood; cunningham; ernie fletcher; thune; yabbadabbadoo adinfinitum), these guys will ALWAYS fight back! what do you expect, cornered rats to lie down and roll over? maybe you’re thinkin of jackie mason’s ronald reagan iran/contra shtick, “what you got proof? oh, well, you got proof, that’s a different matter altogether!” please. enter the real world. open your eyes and read. they’re going to spin city and back. but, this is only beginning. and they’re starting from public approval levels already at all time lows.
and not only that, wait till we finally get into the prisoner abuse photos. little boys getting buggered on videotape in front of their mothers. if you have no idea who seymour hersh is and have no trust in him when he said we ain’t seen nothing yet with those ass pyramids–would you believe donald rumsfeld? you wanna talk about squeezed tight rectums, they are squeezing so tight on this–as much as they are squeezing on the yellowcake forgeries. except these photos are much more explosive, much more. why? because they’re visual. v-i-s-u-a-l. that’s why katrina was such a political killer for bush. the visuals.
please can we just have a little coming to common sense here?
and a little faith in the fitzgerald man. you wanted it alllllllllll today? awwwww. well, too bad. you didn’t get it allllllll today. but, believe me, it’s going to be even better this way.
Fitz was masterful, keeping his cards close to the vest. Never have I seen anybody so intelligent, so prepared and so determined. His demeanor was perfect. He is the fact master, confident but humble. This is just his opener, that’s why he has arranged to rent additional office space across the street, (to hire more lawyers?) Stay tuned.
After indictus interruptus I almost feel like what happened today was premature ejaculation. That only one person was indicted today really sounds disappointing on first impression. This after 22 months? And what about the leak itself? We still do not know who is responsible for that crime, if there was one.
I personally think Fitz knows that he could not deliver today what he wanted to, which is — the answer to the question who leaked, when, how, and why. (I suspect Fitz does know but is not ready to act on it.) His most poignant moment (of the part that I saw) was when he said his wish was to finish this job so he could wake up in his own bed in Chicago. He just ran out of time, after the GJ had already been extended.
And the other key thing he said of course was that he was not done, though the bulk of the work has been done. I think he is committed to working this thing through until he finds the answers he is looking for.
He also denied that the investigation had anything to do “with the propriety of the war.” Of course, had he said it did have to do with the propriety of the war, the wingnuts would have been all over this, and rightly so. The investigation is about who broke the anti leak laws. But we, the public, can see it another way, which is that it has everything to do with the propriety of the war.
From that point of view, I think today’s indictment of Libby was a big deal for those of us who opposed the war, and clearly a huge setback for Bush/Cheney. Finally people are beginning to pay attention, and even some of the MSM are showing signs of intelligent life.
That’s progress, and I for one am grateful. Well, almost. Let truth and justice run its course.
Cue the Roling Stones…
“Tiiiiiiimmmmmmmeeeeee, is on my side.
Yes, it is…”
I noticed his shaking voice, and immediately thought about his working class background and how hard he has worked (unlike Silverspoon George) to get where he is today.
If his parents were watching, no doubt, they are brimming with pride. Their son is an American hero.
just wondering:
agreed. the narrative was key. so was the linking to national security (which he astutely redefined as the safety of “all of us”), the baseball analogy (which is impossible not to understand), the public display of his implacable and incorruptible personality, and the use of libby as a sobering “example” to the other perps, who aren’t completely off the meat hook yet.
the press was inane, at best. there were a couple good questions (i.e., questions that fitz was able to answer) but almost everybody else just wasted his precious time asking questions that they should have known he wasn’t going to answer.
did they do this out of stupidity, or were they giving him a chance to show how upright he was?
my money is on stupidity.
.
Damn! I was too late! You’re outed, uhClem!
“We’re back from the shadows again…
Out where an injun’s your friend…
Where the vegetables are green,
And you pee into the stream…
Yes, we’re back from
the shadows…again.”
Mrs.K8 – You mentioned something I hadn’t thought of; Fitz probably has a very good case against Libby and (hopefully) won’t be in the mood to plea bargin. Fitz doesn’t exactly seem like the type to suffer liars gladly.
Another thing that I noticed is that usually Bush puffs himself up and struts a lot when he’s feeling like he’s got an ace or two up his sleeve, but his mood seemed as black as Karl Rove’s heart for a change.
Hope Fitz holds the line.
uhClem, should we enlighten these fine folks about the genesis of your name? If not (if you want to obstruct and keep your dirty little secrets, you, you…) then I’ll just say, keep your chin up; this is surely not over.
Fitz is not happy. He is that rarest of public officials in Washington these days, a patriot. Remember Fudd’s first law of opposition: If you push something hard enough, it will FALL OVER. He’s pushing Libby, he’s pushing Rove; hell, he pushed Miller clean over.
We dems have become so used to defeat that I’m not sure we’ll recognize victory when we see it. I’m drinking fine Australian table wine right now, but I’m optimistically saving the champagne.
Thanks Barney! I guess I thought the mention of the Dr. Memory character was supposed to represent a specific perp in the administration. Thanks for the Firesign Theater detail!
Re: public speaking, one of the most endearing things about Fitzgerald today was that his voice was shaking when he made his opening statement. Did anyone else notice that?
.
Well done, Chairman Barney!
(All of this, for those to whom this all looks like gibberish, is from an old Firesign Theatre album called “I Think We’re All Bozos On This Bus.”)
Note to Everyone:
If this were the end of the line, PF would have said so in no uncertain terms. The fact that he hasn’t, and that he is leaving open a new grand jury, speaks volumes in my opinion (even if he does brush it off as “standard perating procedure”).
Also, if he hadn’t come clean with the news of Libby’s indictment, there would have been public and political uproar over his investigation, both past and future.
To use a somewhat clumsy poker analogy, Fitzgerald showed his openers today: 5 counts, i.e. definitely Jacks or better. Now we know, without a doubt, that he had the RIGHT to play this hand. Better yet, he will- as a result- be allowed to play a little longer, and possibly pick up a few more pots.
.
Arbogast – Wasn’t Fitz fab? A really serious, competent, no nonsense kind of guy; probably has ten times IQ of Bush.
Gary Cooper meets Dubbya
If he [Fitzgerald] nails someone, they will stay nailed.
The logical conclusion of this is… Libby will be convicted in a court of law, and Libby will serve time in prison.
If Libby goes to trial, I think Fitzgerald has him set up every which way to be convicted.
If Libby takes a plea it will only be because he’s giving the truth about himself and others — which will lead to more air-tight indictments.
If Bush is a sleaze and pardons Libby before the truth is known, he will take huge heat for that (I know Bubble Boy doesn’t care, but the fall-out will be huge for the Thugs), but even more importantly nothing can stop the Wilsons from filing a civil suit where the truth will come out anyway.
This is why I’m not so certain about a partdon. My point about “staying nailed” is that Fitz got all the Libby ducks lined up, the truth about Libby’s obstruction efforts is in the indictment counts, and the fall-out will be very seriously negative for the White House no matter which way it shakes out.
I share Pachacutec’s longer-term view of the consequences. [And I’m still all fired up to continue the storming of the Bush Bastille.]
Another Bozo or anyone else who can answer –
Dr. Memory hasn’t testified yet. We haven’t even seen him yet. And I really think we will.
OK, I admit that I’m dense here. Who is Dr. Memory?
Mrs. K8 | 10.28.05 – 2:24 pm | #
Finally, the system catches up to Clem in the form of one of the holographic walkaround characters. Barney is amazed when Clem reveals that this character is just a technical simulation/stimulation. Worker Clem clones himself (“Hi! I’m Uh, Clem!”) as a hologram and sends his clone “back to the shadows,” that is, inside the mind of Dr. Memory, the Übber-computer for the whole of the Future Fair, perhaps the whole of the country.
Inside, the Uh, Clem-Clone is again assailed by a series of gatekeepers before he actually meets Dr. Memory. The Uh, Clem-Clone asks Dr. Memory if he remembers the past: response: yes. He asks if Dr. Memory remembers the future, a question that is not odd if you are a Steven Hawkings-level theoretical philosopher/physicist or an “um, cool, the walls are melting” stoner, both not inconsiderable parts of the Firesign audience. Response: again, yes. “Well,” says the Uh, Clem-Clone, “forget it!” Chaos reigns as Dr. Memory begins to simultaneously erase the past and the projected future. The Uh, Clem-Clone, Dr. Memory, the Fair, everything, goes up in a barrage of the Future Fair Nite-Time Firework Spectacular.
Just read this on Steve Clemons’s blog:
This from a tuned-in TWN reader. His comment seems right:
The Undersecretary of State referenced in the indictment is not John Bolton — it is Marc Grossman, the former U/S for Political Affairs. Because Powell and Armitage were out of the country at the time, Grossman was Acting Sec State. Hence, the State Department’s INR forwarded Grossman the memo on the Niger stuff and Plame and Wilson’s role, and Grossman forwarded it on to the White House. Nothing sinister — Grossman was just peforming his bureaucratic function.
Oh susan, that was so hilarious — and sadly, so true. Wouldn’t you think after years of public speaking he’d get the hang of it?
“I asked for specific evidence that you would accept. You haven’t answered that question. You keep telling me what you WON’T accept. What WILL you accept? You implied you need an “official” statement. Since that requirement is not possible, it shows your judgement is emotional rather than logical.”
What are you talking about?
What did we just get today from Fitz? Gee, I think it was an official statement, wasn’t it? THAT is what I consider acceptable evidence of an indictment at this point.
If we happen to get another one of these official announcements in weeks to come that Rove has been indictment, then I’ll accept THAT as solid information.
But as far as the gossip we’ve relied on for the past few weeks, no… I don’t think there’s much sense in taking it for more than what it is.
If you have a problem with my opinion on that, then I’m sorry you have a problem with it.
I was not one of the “Me”-bashers before, but now that the facts are in, it is obvious that there is nothing to what “Me” is saying. Just two days ago he stated in the affirmative, citing his special sources, that the Grand Jury had unanimously voted to extend its writ. We now know for a fact that is not true, and that instead a new Grand Jury is being convened. Stop posting, “Me”.
Did anyone notice that the prepared statement that Bush read made him sound intelligent? When he finished reading, and lapsed into Bush-speak, he sounded like a rube.
His speech writers need to help him transition from smart to dumb.
fresh thread !
Can Fitzgerald have sealed indictments for the IIPA or 1917 law on Libby that he has not yet announced, and be holding them pending a Libby appearance in the next grand jury and or subsequent trials?
Must a prosecutor process indictments for a grand jury before the grand jury is dismissed, or can he hold them under seal?
the impression I got was that Fitz pretty much has most of the facts he needs for many more indictments. He used the Libby indictments to tip his hand to the other ‘perps’ that the end is coming soon. He did lay out a LOT of info on the workings of the schemers !
A basketball analogy for a baseball kind of day: Everything up to now has been the warmup and the referee just tossed the opening jump ball in the air. This Fitzgerald kid is quite crafty in going into all ‘four corners’ of the court and knows there is yet more time for the game to be won and for opponents to reveal themselves for who they are.
While apparently there have been other ‘Official A’s in other case, in this case I think it is Fleischer.
And plea agreements? All we see now is what is on Libby’s indictment paper. Who is to say whether others have agreed to pleas and whether more on conspiracy will not be heard?
Because Fitzgerald revealed some of his game today does not mean he has revealed all. Look to the scoreboard at the end of the game after the final bounce of the ball only now released in the air.
Fitzgerald for President!
What a brain Fitz has. He did not seem to be using notes.
If I was a member of this cabal I would not be sleeping well. He doesn’t appear to be done with this matter.
Couldn’t some of these folks be immunized and forced to testify?
ReddHedd
If Libby “pleads out” expecting guideline sentencing, can the sentencing judge do a “Sirica”, ignore the guidelines and drop a safe on Scooter in the form of max sentences? It’s why McCord started talking to senate hearing investigators.
just wondering: I agree. And, I truly believe there is a great deal of hope and promise for Fitzgerald’s continued work and new Grand Jury. It’s just beginning and there is much more to this case and the cases that will spring from it.
I think she means “Mr. Memory”.
Allusion to the 39 Steps?
.
re: dl at 2:31 and 2:41 and my post at 2:18.
I went back and looked at the press conference — it’s at cspan if anybody cares to get a fitz fix — and you are absolutely right.
I took a couple comments in the Q&A section out of context — particularly the one about cheney where he’s saying “please don’t read into this” — and took that as meaning that the tea leaves were wrong, rather than for what it is, just simply, don’t read the tea leaves. In watching things again, I see it a little differently, and I must say that my guarded optimism just ticked up a bit from guarded-with-a-shotgun-and-a-rottweiler to guarded-with-a-sturdy-deadbolt.
In my opinion, Fitzgerald has shown he’s a brilliant strategist. When you combine that with being an honest and decent man, I think Rove has met his match. Through today’s indicment and presentation, Fitzgerald has accomplished the following:
1. Through the detailed statements in the indictment, he’s created a narrative for the press;
2. The narrative that’s been provided is based on facts that the MSM cannot refute (just ask Pumpkinhead)
3. The facts in the indictment make it clear that Libby blatantly and deliberately set out to deceive the FBI both because he thought he could get way with it and because he knew he was doing the wrong thing;
4. Through the “sand in the face” analogy, he undercuts those critics poised to attack the continuation of the investigation – the lies of the perpatrators are the cause of the delay;
5. The facts set forth in the indictment strongly suggest Cheney’s involvement and the involvement of Rove, without coming out and saying it;
6. He’s tightened the screws on other perjurers by demonstatring that he’s not afraid to charge someone “only for perjury”;
7. The indictment demonstrates to other perjurers, that while they might be able to justify their bald-faced lies to themselves, they don’t look so good in plain old black and white;
8. By not charging under the Espionage or IIPA statute, he gets people asking, hey why isn’t Libby being charged under those statutes (instead of the spin that the Espionage Act is too broad and people are always violating it).
9. The public is going to love his simple honesty and real humility, (which is in stark contrast to the sleaziness of the cadre of spinners and talking heads).
Brilliant, brilliant moves Mr. Fitzgerald. I bow to your greatness.
“The senario that I’m worried about is that Libby will plea out …”
What does plea out mean?
Thanks, ReddHedd!
I’ll tell you one thing: there is a special White House group right now whose only job is to make sure there is never another Fitzgerald press conference.
NEVER, EVER.
The guy makes the chimp look like what he is: a bone-headed piece of shit opportunist.
No, you don’t seem to get it.
I asked for specific evidence that you would accept. You haven’t answered that question. You keep telling me what you WON’T accept. What WILL you accept? You implied you need an “official” statement. Since that requirement is not possible, it shows your judgement is emotional rather than logical.
Also, I agree with the “Take Heart” approach. This conservative machine is vast and powerful and has taken a long time to reach ascendency. It will not just turn and run into a hole at the first sight of trouble. They attack and attack and abuse and change tactics and attack again.
But, yes, the plates are shifting and they move slowly and deliberately. Notice Bush changing his stance on the Davis-Bacon Act, that cut wages of workers in the Gulf, that was because of constant pressure from church groups and Democratic congress-Kudos Mr. George Miller, and unions.
The money machine–the oil companies are registering obscenely large amounts of money on their ledgers and when the average person is hurting that vulgar profit looks even more outlandish.
Remember the school that cancelled the prom recently, because the headmaster thought that parents paying for $10,000 yacht rentals and limos and all was FINANCIAL DECADENCE. It is as much if not more of a sin than lots of other decadence.
Tom Delay and the rest of the Rightwing spin machine are saying, NOW that we have the power, no one should question us. We should be above the law. We are the victims. Do you think that will sell to people who have to go to court for parking tickets or weed busts or divorce court? We can’t “arrange” to have our juries influenced by big money media campaigns. The more they shove this power and privilege in our faces the more of backlash it will produce. IT IS happening. Do what you can to cause it to quicken.
Take Heart, it is changing.
-GSD
I was not one of the “Me”-bashers before, but now that the facts are in, it is obvious that there is nothing to what “Me” is saying. Just two days ago he stated in the affirmative, citing his special sources, that the Grand Jury had unanimously voted to extend its writ. We now know for a fact that is not true, and that instead a new Grand Jury is being convened. Stop posting, “Me”.
he got Himmler. let’s hope Goering and Goebbels are next. And then…
Pacifica — yes, Cheney, or anyoen else who might have information regarding the matters at bar could be subpoened to testify at trial. And wouldn’t that be a kick — Cheney has to testify on the stand about his Chief of Staff’s disregard for the rule of law. And what was his role in all of this? Does Libby’s lawyer do his job and cross-examine Cheney with all the fervor that you usually do to protect your client? Or does Libby cop a plea and take the fall for the rest of the Administration — and if he does, do we all curl up in a ball and allow the press to go back to not asking the questions that need asking? Hell, no. It’s going to be a long, ugly series of questions on this — and the longer it drags on, the uglier it gets.
The reason why it’s so hard to indict for outing a covert CIA agent is that the law states that the person has to “knowingly” do so.
My guess is that Fitz had no proof that anyone knew that Plame’s status was covert. There are lots of people who work for the Agency who are overt or out in the open.
It’s impossible to know what is in someone’s mind unless they share it with someone and that person testifies truthfully.
As far as Fitz knows, there was no conversation between Libby and another person that went:
Let’s blow the cover of this CIA operative, Valerie Plame!
a- if he said that and you find it, then i missed it and i’ll cop to it. however, i doubt it because that would be specifically contradicting the “not beyond the 4 corners” assertion which i heard several times.
generally- the reason is the baseball analogy doesn’t explain anything outside the four corners of the indictment. all the baseball analogy does [was trying to do] is illustrate why lying in this circumstance is serious.
time will tell. i never bought any champagne in the first place.
I’m still concerned about all the aspens… As you know, they all turn at the same time because they are connected at the roots…
What the hell does that mean? I’m sure Fitz is working on breaking this down too… I’m positive it has nothing to do with the rodeo, though it may have something to do with Wyoming and cowboys.
I would be curious to know what anyone makes of the statement made by Fitzgerald indicating his “opinion” that the Espionage Act is not as far reaching as the British “State Secrets” act. This is even more perplexing if we take his statements about the cost of compromising classified information concerning intelligence agents as damaging to the public interest. One would hope that this was more than a glimpse of the factors he used in exercising his discretionary powers in proposing indictments. Would Libby be any better off if he had pled the 5th Amendment? I am not so sure. Why would he want to incriminate himself? That would have invited the cross hairs quickly. By proceeding as he did he does indeed obscure the truth, loyal protects others and all in the context of a possible pardon most targets never enjoy. He seems to me that Libby’s lying creates a fairly strong inference of an illegal motive where Fitzgerald stated clearly and beyond the “four corners” of the indictment that Libby’s leak was the first.
If he [Fitzgerald] nails someone, they will stay nailed.
The logical conclusion of this is… Libby will be convicted in a court of law, and Libby will serve time in prison.
Â
> The only purpose of this first round of
> indictments was to use Libby to show
> the rest of the conspirators what
> facing 50 years will do to a person.
> The others will watch Libby and his
> family sweat, and maybe, finally,
> realize that it’s time to come clean.
I would like to think that too, but the problem I have is that Fitzgerald needs a grand jury to compel large volumes of testimony. And he does not currently have one. Yes, he can borrow another GJ for short periods. But the one that just expired had been digging in for 24 months; it knew all the poop and all the ropes. If Fitz had anything on Rove, wouldn’t it have been better to get the sitting GJ to indict?
Which leads to the question, what did Rove say/do that got him released between Tuesday and Thursday? Look at the fiim: Monday and Tuesday, no smirk. Thursday the smirk is back. Why? What “get out of jail free” card did he play? I don’t think even Rove would be smirking if he had been forced to give up Cheney.
Fitz performed magnificently. The woe-is-me-can’t-you-all-see-how-EEEeeevil-they-are talk is sort of childish; I hope I’m never in any sort of emergency situation with any of YOU folks.
There’s still an investigation going on. There have been too many pieces of evidence pointing to a wider conspiracy for this to be it.
Can you not see the intelligence — maybe the necessity — of rolling charges like these out in stages, after they’re air-tight?
What if there HAD been 22 indictments out today including Cheney and half Bush’s National Security team? Do you think the rest of America — by which I mean almost everyone not on this comments thread– is ready to hear that kind of a bombshell with no vaseline?
Hey, maybe that’s all there is. But it seems more to me like a prelude, and at the very least that the cat’s out of the bag to the wider populace.
WRT GSD’s comments concerning the press: most of these reporters are bottoms, and you know how pushy bottoms can be.
-
“I think Fitz has all of the information he needs to charge Libby with more crimes. What he is trying to get is the information to completely nail some other people.”
That was one thing in the press conference that didn’t quite make sense to me. I read the indictment beforehand, and it seemed like Fitz had a least enough evidence to go for Mishandling of Classified Information.
The baseball metaphor didn’t really clear up why he declined to indict on that.
Maybe one of the lawyers here can explain?
.
If, eventually, it is proven that a conspiracy existed that resulted in the outing of Plame, I think Congress would be the ones to tackle the bigger issue of “why we went to war.”
I think that the media had better learn a valuable lesson about this Whitehouse and it’s operatives. They will use the media like a rubber and then toss them under the bed with all the dirty socks, beer cans and apple cores when they are finished.
Libby was happy to point the finger at Tim Russert and say “he told me”. Also, they used that skag Miller for all she was worth too. They continued to use them all week with silly and misquiding leaks.
The bottom line though is that MOST of the mainstream media is compromised by access, power and money. Who will ever trust Andrea Mtichell, The New York Times, Christ Matthews, Tim Russert, not to mention the Fox flying monkey brigades? Not me.
It is indeed time to vote with your remote and to find other and better sources of into.
When are we going to get a HamsherVision a la Bloomberg!
Thanks for all the great work.
-GSD
Re: pardoning.
I think the usual senario is for the Prez to pardon after the perp is found guilty. After all, they could be found innocent and there would be a major fire storm, politically, if Bush were to pre-empt a trial like that.
The senario that I’m worried about is that Libby will plea out and Bush will pardon him before he goes to jail. Knowing Rove, the WH may have already planned it this way, and assured Libby that if he takes the fall and doesn’t flip on anyone else, that he’ll be pardoned as soon as possible.
When does Scooter do the frog march?
dl-
i’ll go back to the tape to get the exact quote, but he said something to that effect twice in the first five minutes.
a- “The investigation will continue, but please do not infer anything when I say that, and please do not expect anything more.”
huh? i heard “do not infer anything i say to pertain to anything outside the 4 cornders of this indictment” but i did NOT hear him say “do not expect anything more, in general, to come from my investigation”
big difference, there.
The charges against Libby and no charges against anyone else feel somewhat disappointing, I agree, but I have to agree with Redd, Pach and others in terms of this being overall a triumph for improvement in the sorry state of our government and country. I think it’s important to remember that we are looking at this case through a microscope here at FDL, but the rest of the public is just learning about this over the lase week or so, and are going to be adding this intel to the rest of the fecent and very public crises and failures of this administration. Bush’s approval is in the pits and many believe he cannot pull that out; if there was doubt, it is likely Libby’s indictment and trial will eliminate it. An example is that last week’s CW in Newsweek was all about the administration and was all thumbs down. I just think you need to look at the broader picture and think aobut the questions people will be asking over the next few weeks about what else they thought they knew about this group. I’m satisfied, particularly after seeing Pat Fitzgerald seethe with anger at the suggestion that these charges might be ridiculed, and his beautiful description of why they are not. I think he is the greatest threat they could imagine because he is not one of them, he is the real deal, law and order and truth. He will follow the investigation to its natural end, and we will see where that is, but I do think these charges and this indictment are more significant than some consider them to be.
Can there be other indictments, sealed and secret from this grand jury and as yet not announced?
“You seem to be implying that you would only accept an official statement from Fitz, but that’s a ridiculous standard because he CANNOT do that. Get it? You are asking for what is not possible.”
No, you don’t seem to get it. What I’m flat-out SAYING is that we got a lot of crazy ideas over the last few weeks based on little more than gossip and in some cases I think flat-out disinformation from Rove’s people, and I think we saw today that we really had the wrong idea about what was going on.
Speculation is fine, but this board (myself intended) has tended to attach a good bit more weight to this gossip than was warranted. At this point, all I’m saying is that the only thing that anyone can really take as anything other than wishful thinking or spin is an actual announcement from Fitzgerald.
Case in point: there’s a story up now on Raw Story that suggests that Rove is a hair’s breadth away from being indicted himself. Over the past few weeks, that story would have sent this board into a flurry of activity, much of it building up ideas of what was actually going to play out in the real world.
What I’m saying is, I personally am not going to attach much weight to empty gossip like that (and I’d say the same thing if that story was in the NYT rather than on Raw Story).
If Fitz announces more indictments, then that’s something with some meat to it. Everything short of that is just wishful thinking at best, and disinformation from GJ witnesses at worst.
Another Bozo or anyone else who can answer –
Dr. Memory hasn’t testified yet. We haven’t even seen him yet. And I really think we will.
OK, I admit that I’m dense here. Who is Dr. Memory?
To cover up”why we went to war” is the reason Plame was outed.
To cover up Plame being outed is why Libby was charged today.
Why wouldn’t this lead back to the original crime, misleading congress to make war on Iraq?
I very much appreciate this blog. Jane and Redd take very complex subjects and make them accessible to me. If it weren’t for their careful and concise analysis, I would be mostly in the dark about many of the details surrounding this case.
While I, too, would have given a lot to see Rove indicted, I think we need to recognized that Fitzgerald is a man of considerable skill and integrity. More may be coming; we need to be patient.
In the meantime, I am deeply grateful that we have people like Patrick Fitzgerald working on our behalf. If our country is to emerge from the nightmare we find ourselves trapped in, it will be through the efforts of people like Pat Fitzgerald. Blessings upon him.
Re:
In other words, Millers tactics served to get shrub re-elected.
Dammit All | 10.28.05 – 1:49 pm | #
I thought of that too!
Also, it sounded to me as though Fitz would have liked more time, but he was up against the G/J expiring. Another reason why if JM had testified sooner, even after the election, there might have been a different outcome.
Ugh.
Thanks, Pachacutec. I think I’ve said my piece and I’m going to take a break too.
Feet on the ground, folks. And courage.
Here’s my take. The only purpose of this first round of indictments was to use Libby to show the rest of the conspirators what facing 50 years will do to a person. The others will watch Libby and his family sweat, and maybe, finally, realize that it’s time to come clean.
Libby was the most obvious and the most public target, so Fitz did not show any of his cards at all. But aren’t there two wild cards (or more appropriately, a wild card and a trump card) — 1. is it possible there are there other sealed indictments and, if so, do the indictees know yet and 2. wouldn’t a pardon completely blunt the intended effect (i.e., Libby’s not hung out to dry, and nobody else would be either)? Is Fitz counting on Bush not pardonning — yet – because of the possible political backlash?
Sorry about the repeat postings.
I agree that having Libby fall was a deliberate strategy by the White House. But isn’t Fitzgerald smart enough to see through it?
Of course he saw through it. The question is if he can do anything about it. I am guardedly optimistic that he can, but I know in my gut that my optimism may fail me here.
zeppo: I’m gonna let it go and spend some time with the family. I think my perspective is well represented in my comments.
I’m not meaning to “go after” anyone, though I have been arguing for an interpretation of the day’s events. I would add, to close out this post before I take a break, that anyone who had folowed my perspective throughout this process would not be disappointed at all.
In that sense, your comment that we are “all” disappointed does not represent me.
I have nothing but esteem and caring for the denizen of this blog.
ReddHedd – I have some questions about what we can expect in the future. If Libby goes to trial, can additional information that was not released in the indictment be made public? Can others be subpeonaed to testify, for example Rove, Cheney, or Bush?
While I would love to see justice in the form of indictments, the real end game for me is for everyone in this country to finally see that the emperor has no clothes.
I, for one, never thought this investigation was going to delve into the issues of why we went to war in the first place. I thought the entire issue was the outing of Valerie Plame and the damage to National Security.
If this eventually leads us to “why we went to war” — that’s fine. But I think the real issue is that people in this administration have caused damage to our National Security by scheming to damage Plame and the CIA. If the administration is eventually taken down because they hurt our National Security — that would satisfy me to no end.
So, Libby lies. I’m sure no one was surprised by that. I think the big surprise was how much information on “National Security” was in the indictment. Look at how many people knew about Plame before her name even got into the media. So far, all those early mentions of Plame were people in the White House or other government areas, not in the media. Was she that well-known in government circles? From the number of people who apparently knew about her, you’d think she was on the lecture circuit or something.
Pachacutec —
I know you can’t see me, but trust me, I am cheering everything you say. [Which is not to say I’m unsympathetic to those who are feeling discouraged. I understand.]
Although I was one of the other crowd who believed that there would be more indictments today, I am not really discouraged at all, and for all the reasons you have so eloquently stated.
Yesterday all day and last night I was so anxious that I couldn’t post here; I could barely concentrate enough to READ everything.
Today I am strangely (or perhaps NOT so strangely) reassured. Fitzgerald gave me that today. If he nails someone, they will stay nailed. And he will be able to explain why in terms a child can understand.
This process is far, far from over. It’s like saying the burglars of the Watergate complex were convicted, so what? That’s it, Nixon’s crimes will go unpunished. We all know how that turned out. I remember my feelings at the time, that Nixon would sweep everything under the rug and would get away with murder.
The tide has turned in public sentiment, permanently, I believe.
And I think more people in various gov’t agencies who have been reluctantly silent about what they know about numerous other administration crimes will be more emboldened to do their patriotic duty.
You want me to take Fitz at his word?
Okay, paraphrasing here,
“The grand jury will stay open to consider new evidence but this is very normal and does not mean that they are actively pursuing more indictments.”
“I’m not going to tell you about anything outside the ‘four corners’ because I won’t tell you about anything that is not rock-solid, although I have some hunches that more serious crimes were committed. The bulk of the investigation is complete and at this point it indicates that I do not have evidence to indict on those other crimes. I don’t know if I will.”
“The investigation will continue, but please do not infer anything when I say that, and please do not expect anything more.”
Honestly, I think it’s the yaysayers who are reading tea leaves on this one.
Let’s hope that there’s no love loss between the Bush/Rove camp and the Cheney/Libby camp. Rove threw Libby under the bus, and paybacks could be a bitch. The outing of Plame has the stink of Rove all over it: character assassination is his forte; the only thing he’s almost as good at is getting some schmuck to be the bag boy. Redd’s point of a “considered pattern” is well taken–nobody is going to believe that Libby acted on his own volition. Indeed, he might have a beautiful song to sing about the involvement of the rest of the cabal.
Or, Fitz has shot his wad. Either way I’m getting drunk tonight! On chamgagne! Merry Fitzmas!
In Fitz’s baseball analogy he said Libby through sand in the umpire’s eyes and prevented him from knowng the facts and circumstances of the case. I think that statement is key as to where the investigation now stands. He repeatedly said that to support a charge all the facts and circs have to be known – therefore the very substance of the indictments points to the suggestion that Libby still is in jeopardy from the underlying charge, all the players knowing and speaking about Ms Wilson are still in jeopardy of conspiracy charges, and “Official A” (Rove?) faces all of te above. Repubs can spin itpositively that only Scooter is going down, but the shelf life of that spin will be very brief.
The way I remember what Fitz said about not charging the underlying crime was that the law hinges on what a particular person knew at the time of the outing. And unless Libby or Rove discussed their knowledge with another person who could testify to that, there is no way of prosecuting the outing crime.
Here’s the excerpt on the subject from a Q&A seesion on WaPo, with Robert G. Kaiser
Washington Post Associate Editor
Friday, October 28, 2005; 3:00 PM
“The law forbids the disclosure of the identity of a covert, or undercover, CIA agent IF (and ONLY if) the discloser 1) knows that this information is classified, or officially secret and 2) willfully discloses it nevertheless. This is why “motive” is important. We have no evidence, none at all, that ANYONE in the Bush White House, from Cheney to Rove to Libby and beyond, both knew that Valerie Wilson was a former undercover operative and willfully broke the law by disclosing that fact to a reporter. Today’s indictment suggests, but does not yet confirm, that Fitzgerald also had no evidence of such a crime.”
http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..00985.html
Readers are exhausted by the days of suspense and are disappointed because a) Rove wasn’t indicted today, b) Bush and Cheney weren”t named unindicted co-conspirators, (always a long shot), and c) it doesn’t look as though Bush will be climbing into his last presidential helicopter in disgrace a la Richard Nixon any time soon. Relax, it’s ongoing and still a very big deal. Also, as the right knows very well, political battle is a continuous process. I guess they just enjoy the conflict more than the left does.
Let’s not get going on each other, shall we, about who is too optimitic vs. too pessimistic? I think we are all disappointed, but hey, there’s always tomorrow. It could rain, we could hit the lottery…
All I know is that, one year ago or even four months ago, I would have never envisioned today happening. It isn’t what we all wanted, but it sure is much better than having everything those assholes do remain in the dark forever. The conversation has started, I think.
I think my favorite Fitz line of the day was “One day I was being called a Democratic hack, and the next I was being called a Republican hack, and the only thing I had done in those 24 hours was to go to bed.”
HL – thank you for the correction.
“Libby chose to fall. He knew he was going to be indicted. Nothing has changed. He will still fall. And there’s nothing we can do about it.”
I agree that having Libby fall was a deliberate strategy by the White House. But isn’t Fitzgerald smart enough to see through it? Someone here compared this to a chess game. The White House gave up one of their pieces (a bishop? a knight?). Let’s see what the other side does on the way to checkmate.
Like “Me” I am very positive about Fitz’s position. He is holding lots of cards close to his vest. He’s honed this game with some of the best felons in the world (Chicago). Fitz has been plotting his moves carefully. We’ll be “in” on the rest of the game when he decides. Meantime, patience is the order of the day.
The implosion continues.
Count me in the minority who thinks that maybe, just maybe we should take Fitz at his word. You know, the word where he insisted that all he would discuss at today’s press conference would be within the “four corners” of this indictment. And from this, the naysayers presume that since he didn’t mention anything outside this indictment, there /is/ nothing outside this indictment. I think some people are reading tea leaves that aren’t there…
One final thought. If Novak isn’t talking yet – or very soon- you can assume that an investigation is still very active and may hold Novak at serious risk, along with the cronies who leaked to him.
As I understand it, IANAL, you have the Right to Refuse to Incriminate Yourself. You do *not* have the Right to Not Incriminate Others; you have to speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth about illegal activity you know/are aware of.
This is why I keep going back to the Obstructing Justice indictment.
If I understand correctly, IANAL, the rules regarding ‘Hostile Witnesses’ is such that if the witness does not answer then they can be charged with Contempt of Court and held in confinement until they do answer the question(s).
IF this is correct – yet, again, IANAL – Mr. Libby is actually facing life without parole until he answers any questions Mr. Fitzgerald chooses to ask.
ATinNM | 10.28.05 – 1:58 pm | #
You understand incorrectly. You can refuse to say anything about anyone unless you are granted immunity for your testimony.
In that case, you are required to testify truthfully and completely under penalty of perjury.
Something more than Raw Story “scoops” and Me’s “insider” claims, for one thing. Something more than “It’ll happen if we believe hard enough”.
And unless I hear something official, I’ve got no reason to believe that there’s more coming.
You seem to be implying that you would only accept an official statement from Fitz, but that’s a ridiculous standard because he CANNOT do that. Get it? You are asking for what is not possible.
a: I appreciate your assessment of my balance.
But I don’t think the board is overly optimistic. I think it’s overly pessimistic.
Here’s why that matters to me.
I have an agenda. A polotical agenda. In my experience, the pessimism I see being espressed leads to despair, which leads to inaction.
I have been at pains earlier, before today’s annoucements, to urge people to see today’s events as part of an ongoing process, and to be ready to keep fighting.
Those in despair make lousy warriors. But more to the point, I hate to see people fold their tents and go home when we have the enemy on the run. And I am more than convinced we have the enemy on the run.
I Americam history, if General Lee’s retreating army had been pursued from the field at Gettysburg, then much time and bloodshed could have been avoided, since the pivotal event of the war had occurred and Lee was ready to be routed.
The Union chose to lick its wounds at Gettysburg, rather than vanquish the Army of Northern Virginia.
You folks who want to lick your wounds today won’t fight, and you will waste time.
I want those kids in Iraq – American and non-American – to have relief. If you lick your wonds and ,fail to recognize our need, our opportunity, to press our advantage, then you are hurting our cause.
As I said, I have a partisan agenda.
From Salon…
—
What comes next for Karl Rove?
So what will become of Karl Rove? At the press conference that just ended, reporters tried every way imaginable to get Patrick Fitzgerald to explain his plans for the president’s chief political advisor. Fitzgerald gave them virtually nothing. He said reporters were trying to read “tea leaves” he wasn’t giving, and he reminded them that they’re not “supposed” to know what’s going on with a grand jury.
Here’s what we know, or at least what we think we know. Over the course of the last week, the New York Times reported repeatedly that Rove had been advised that he “may be in serious legal jeopardy.” The Washington Post reported that one of Fitzgerald’s prosecutors was still asking a former White House aide about Rove as late as this week. And Roll Call reported that Fitzgerald met personally with Rove’s lawyer, Robert Luskin, on Tuesday.
So what happened? Fitzgerald won’t say. He wouldn’t say today if he expected more indictments; he wouldn’t say today if anyone other than Libby is still in legal jeopardy; he wouldn’t say today if he would enlist the assistance of another grand jury; and he wouldn’t say today whether the grand jury whose term expired today had declined to issue any indictments that he sought.
Luskin issued a statement today, but it was both careful and cryptic. He said that Fitzgerald hasn’t made a decision and that Rove’s “status” hasn’t changed, meaning — if the Times had its story straight — that Rove still may be in “serious legal jeopardy.” But if that’s the case, wouldn’t Fitzgerald have wanted to keep his grand jury alive just in case he decides to seek an indictment? Probably, but there’s another purely speculative possibility to consider: In return for an agreement not to indict him today, Rove could have signed an agreement waiving his right to have charges brought by way of indictment. With such an agreement in hand, Fitzgerald could take the time he needs to make a decision and then charge Rove — if he decides to charge him — by way of a criminal complaint issued by the prosecutor himself.
—
And a few thoughts. Again, it the investigation was over, we’d a heard it. It isn’t over. How much is left, who knows.
IMHO, the key is where it always has been. Who leaked to Novak? The truth or cover-up in that “leak” gives the trail for much of what we don’t yet know.
I think that Fitzgerald has been this huge blank screen that we could project our individual wish-list on. Forgeries? Check. Iraq war? Check. 2000? Check. Whatever we wanted, he would produce it for us.
That’s all well and good but when you get down to it, he’s a prosecutor, not a political operative. My main bar was set low – I am content that he did not strike his tent and head back. I didn’t think it was in the cards – but don’t forget, we had pundit after pundit sonorously intoning that there would be no indictments at all…including Woodward and Kristol. So…as far as I’m concerned…the game is joined.
Personally, although I have speculation fatigue, I don’t think he is done. I also don’t think he can talk about where he’s going or why he’s not done…but it’s hard for me to believe that Libby is the end of the road. My hunch is that he’s got sealed indictments or that he wants to flip Libby. Of course, what do I know. I would have loved for him to nail that porker Rove…I hope that will come soon…but in the meantime I’m fascinated and thrilled by where we’re at today.
Chimera: Thanks! I don’t post a lot…mostly a voyeur ;)…but I’ll remember that. I think I have the hang of it now. You just have to keep hitting refresh every few seconds…
David S. – It might not have been the special prosecutor, it might have been Ervin’s investaging committe. Someone can help me on my history, but he had to turn it over.
Fitz takes him to trial quickly and in the process of the trial, Libby can see that he will be almost 70 before he gets out of prison.
Are you telling me he couldn’t see this two weeks ago?
The screws have been turning. The guy did not crack. There are no signs that he will crack. And from the press conference today, my sense of it is that Fitz doesn’t he think he will either.
I still find it possible that this thing could break open on new testimony from someone else, but Libby knew what was coming today, nothing surprised him, and it’s not going to break him.
We lost the battle — if the battle was bringing down Cheney, Rove, et al. legally.
We can still win the war — if the war means 2006 midterms, 2008 presidency, new accountability in Washington, an end to unsourced crony journalism, etc.
Let’s refocus here.
In Fitz’s baseball analogy he said Libby through sand in the umpire’s eyes and prevented him from knowng the facts and circumstances of the case. I think that statement is key as to where the investigation now stands. He repeatedly said that to support a charge all the facts and circs have to be known – therefore the very substance of the indictments points to the suggestion that Libby still is in jeopardy from the underlying charge, all the players knowing and speaking about Ms Wilson are still in jeopardy of conspiracy charges, and “Official A” (Rove?) faces all of te above. Repubs can spin itpositively that only Scooter is going down, but the shelf life of that spin will be very brief.
And yeah, my handle is definitely a Firesign reference, and I would dearly love to see Fitz “Break the Presidennnnt, mayn!”
But I just don’t expect, at this point, that Fitz is gonna end up leaving the Bush administration zizzing and dripping in the end.
“3. Will the White House claim Executive Privilege and refuse to turn over internal documents…”
I’m no lawyer or constitutional expert, but I don’t think Executive Privilege extends to withholding relevant evidence in a criminal proceeding. It pertains to White House vs Congress info sharing. Bush might be reduced to claiming “national security” — with the political shitstorm that such a claim would raise.
—
I’m with the crowd that thinks today’s course was a small appetizer. This was a brilliant beginning to a long slow torture for the Bushies.
Julie: However, if you have posted a comment, close comments and re-open before hitting F5. Otherwise, each time you hit F5 you will re-post your comment.
david s:
1 – yes. 2 – yes. 3 – quite possibly.
I read it all differently. Libby chose to lie to protect others…he’s the fall guy. He had no hope of being able to get away with such blatent bs.
I think this is exactly on target. It’s the only explanation that makes the Russert thing make sense.
And it means, most likely,
1. Libby chose to fall. He knew he was going to be indicted. Nothing has changed. He will still fall. And there’s nothing we can do about it.
And, therefore,
2. Today was a qualified loss. Not a total loss. But a loss in the sense that the bad guys win.
David S. 1. Yes, 2. Yes. 3. Who knows, but in Watergate the SC voted 9-0 that Nixon had to release the tapes (executive privilege, even if it existed, was trumped by the needs of the prosecutor).
I think Fitz has all of the information he needs to charge Libby with more crimes. What he is trying to get is the information to completely nail some other people.
This is about getting Libby to give these other people up.
Here’s my prediction:
Fitz offers to not charge Libby in exchange for his testimony against others. Libby refuses.
Fitz charges him with the actual leak.
Fitz takes him to trial quickly and in the process of the trial, Libby can see that he will be almost 70 before he gets out of prison.
Libby cops to everything, exchanges testimony for a reduced sentence and then Fitz charges everyone else.
-
As I understand it, IANAL, you have the Right to Refuse to Incriminate Yourself. You do *not* have the Right to Not Incriminate Others; you have to speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth about illegal activity you know/are aware of.
This is why I keep going back to the Obstructing Justice indictment.
If I understand correctly, IANAL, the rules regarding ‘Hostile Witnesses’ is such that if the witness does not answer then they can be charged with Contempt of Court and held in confinement until they do answer the question(s).
IF this is correct – yet, again, IANAL – Mr. Libby is actually facing life without parole until he answers any questions Mr. Fitzgerald chooses to ask.
Anyone know how long before Scooter-pie goes on trial?
I’m a naysayer, pach, and I don’t think you are overly optimistic.
I think the board is overly optimistic on the whole, and I think the naysayers are trying to correct this. Your guarded optimism is exactly the center that we need to find. Unfortunately, we’re still off balance to the other side.
But I will say that you and I were having a discussion last night about talking me down from the ledge, wait to see what happens today, etc., and well, after what happened today, I’m still up there.
(And that NYT story that someone else thought would not make the presses is in both the national edition and the nyc edition today.)
remembereringgiap | 10.28.05 – 1:38 pm:
I share your outrage and your goals. I just don’t share your pessimism regarding today’s developments or your expectations that matters would come to a swift conclusion.
Social movement do not change overnight. But I believe we are seeing a meaningful pivot in the direction tat you and I would wish. Time will tell.
1. If the indictment is for obstruction because it prevented the grand jury from finding out if a crime had been committed, and then new information comes out in the trial, can Libby then be charged with outing Plame?
2. Can other people be charged based on information that comes out in the trial, and can a new Grand Jury be empaneled to follow up if it is revealed in testimony that there might have been additional illegal activity?
3. Will the White House claim Executive Privilege and refuse to turn over internal documents that might be subpoenaed as part of the criminal trial? Might Ms. Miers be able to give an opinion on that?
” my post is referencing a previous post above about russert. it looks to me also that libby didn’t think the gig was up until Judy’s june notes came out. but how could he have thought so when he had told such a blatant lie’
I read it all differently. Libby chose to lie to protect others…he’s the fall guy. He had no hope of being able to get away with such blatent bs.
Had he answered honestly it would have taken apart the whole WH…it would have revealed more people(conspiracy) plus the motive(the outting a cia agent or espionage. )
Libby’ had’ to lie to save the WH.
Fitz said that he could have completed this in Oct 2003…1 month before the last election…could you imagine what would have happened if this broke before the last election? And Libby will drag it out even longer.
Will there be ‘justice’ in the end? Not in my mind if others get away because Libby covered for them. Or if Bush pardons him. But I’m confident Fitz did his best with what he had and was fair and thorough.
Anybody got Scooter’s phone number? Why don’t you give him a call and yell “It’s Miller Time!” into the phone!! (Though I’ll bet he needs something stronger than beer right about now!)
“uhclem- why are you still posting if you are so sure of yourself?”
Eh? What exactly are you expecting here?
“Well, I’ve got no doubts whatsoever about what I’m saying… I’d better slink off to a corner and shut up before somebody realizes that I actually know what I’m talking about. I couldn’t live with that embarrassment.”
;^)
..
Couple of things are now clear:
[1] Fitzie is Bush/Cheny’s worst nightmare. His press conference was brilliant. I would not want to be in his prosecutorial crosshairs. The Hannity-istas can stick the whiny “criminalization of policy differences” excuse up their aggregate ass. Fitz has nuked that lame line.
[2] We have a LONG way yet to go. It defies logic and mere reasonableness that Cheney, minimally, is not additionally dirty in this leak and the subsequent coverup, notwithstanding that he may not be ultimately indictable. They conspired to screw with Wilson, period. Unless the Bushies can find a way to shut Fitz down, he will eventually get everyone whom he can. You GO, dude.
—
Something makes me think that Scooter is being served as an appetizer at this party. I think the rest of the dinner has yet to be served.
This indictment paints a delicious narrative just full of juicy tidbits and I think that is where Fitz wants to leave it right now.
(I also believe all the speculation is wonderful too. As much as the left is whipped into a frenzy, so is the right — and everyone is dealing with partial/inaccurate facts so no one really knows what the heck is going on… But isn’t it better this way? The guilty can’t be sleeping well every night…)
I hate to admit, I just recently became addicted to “West Wing” reruns. I’m not much of a TV guy.
I love the way they paint the big picture, take me on a ride with national crises, the human condition, and saving democracy every 15 minutes or so.
And they do it in an hour, still finding time to sell me cars and brokerage houses and such.
Memo to blogworld…it’s “Hollywood” people, and this isn’t.
The biggest news today is that Scooter Libby will be tried in a court of law.
The moment of truth regarding crimes committed to get us into Iraq will not arrive until Libby is prosecuted.
When Fitz lays out Libby’s MOTIVE for committing perjury and obstruction, a conspiracy to mislead Congress will be uncovered, with indictments shortly to follow.
Now, if Libby draws a hanging judge, one like, say, John Sirica, it could go even faster.
Libby will remember Fitz pressure as akin to a swedish massage, if a jurist crushes him like Sirica did the Watergate burglars.
Lastly, I cannot believe the WH is dumb enough not to cut Rove and Cheney loose, and I mean now.
Nixon fell for things he got caught doing AFTER the Watergate burglars were convicted, while he was still pretending that it was only a 5th rate burglary.
Every day Cheney and Rove stay in the WH from this point forward, is another day Bush and everyone around him are open to the possibilty of committing further felonies in order to cover up the original lies told to get war powers from congress.
Let’s not get all doomy and gloomy before the real game has even started.
What I got from the press conference is the importance of establishing a basis upon which one can proceed further. Quite simply, when the level of obstruction and dishonesty is so high from key witnesses, then one can only proceed so far. You need to establish the basis upon which to proceed further, and that foundation must be the truth, the provable facts.
I didn’t realize before how powerful a tactic obstruction is: it delays and offsets the case while keeping the truth at bay.
My only real disappointment in watching the press conference was Fitz’s saying that this case was not at all about the war, and that he had no intention of prosecuting the case for war. I had thought that he had the authority to go “wherever the facts led him,” meaning that if he uncovered some new corruption in relation to the case at hand that he could pursue the new information with equal vigor and a clear mandate. But he took pains to assure us that he could not delve into the underlying bogus claims for war, outside of their narrow application to his own case, and that anyone who expected this case to vindicate his or her position about the neocons having deliberately lied to Congress and the American people would be surely disappointed.
You naysayers who think I’m overly optimistic: find one post or comment I made that claimed to expect more than what we got today.
Find one.
Then tell me I have no reason to maitain my guarded optimism.
uh clem & i imagine many others take this loss personally because against our better instinct we have believed in a form of justice that clture breeds in you
when you are mocked – you take it personally
when you see tha mockery as part of a mechanism which has as its end the death of the people of iraq – you have something that is wholly unpalatable
it is after all, obscene
this world which the bush cheney junta have given us is so so dark – we are to be forgiven for wanting to believe in the better angels of a country’s nature
GrandmaJ: It has taken 30 years for the conservative movement to achieve its current level of ascendancy. You wanted it to be over in one day?
My reality based assessment, my judgment, is that the tectonic plates are shifting, and today helped a lot.
Hang in there.
“But those exaggerated expectation that you talk about weren’t only on rawstory. They were here. And they are still here. If you look at the predictions on this board — the mainstream predictions, I’m not talking about the edge, but the solid conventional wisdom on this board — over the last two weeks, and you compare them to the New York Times, we get beat by the Times. That’s something to acknowledge and it’s something to consider so that we don’t set our expectations/hopes about future Rove, Cheney, Bolton, Wurmser, et al. indictments too high.”
Exactly.
All we really have here (and all we really had here all along) was wishful thinking. We saw this afternoon just how little basis in reality our wishful thinking actually had.
What’s that adage that Bushie Boy loves so much?
Fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can’t get fooled again.
;^)
..
UhClem — love your name because it comes from Firesign, right? — Dr. Memory hasn’t testified yet. We haven’t even seen him yet. And I really think we will.
What’s happened out of all of this — for one thing, I can take off my tinfoil hat for my family now, because what I’ve been saying for a year is now coming off the lips of Chris Matthews. And Fitz today laid out the rationale behind the case — why we should care about it — in terms that anyone can understand.
The lies about the war are laid bare for all to see. Scarborough said last night of Cheney’s MTP statement, I think, that “back home, they’d call that a lie” — and he’s not someone I ever thought would say that.
It’s like Katrina only a lot bigger. We don’t know how big at first — just like Katrina — because it will be a while before all the ripples reach the side of the pond.
Yeah, thanks Jane and Redd! This is a great site, the one I keep coming back to along with Raw Story and Huffin Puff.
It’s possible that now that Libby is indicted, Fitz can go to him and say, we can plea you out and reduce your sentence if you give up others. However, from the press conference, it didn’t sound to me like anything that momentous was in the works.
Since Rove went back to the G/J a fourth time to clear up previous testimony, he may have been able to give reasons (false or not) that would have explained away dubious statements.
Fitz said in his press conference that this case was too murky to prosecute the leaking of a covert CIA operative’s name, and he may not have the goods to charge Rove with the only other option available; perjury and/or obstruction of justice. :-(
“Essentially, Fitz got one of the capos, and the rest of the family is free to continue to do business as usual. A minor victory, yes. A grand slam… not even close.”
UhClem, much as I like your handle (I’m longing for a moment when we can say “He’s broken the President!”), I’ve got to disagree.
Sure, it’s not a grand slam – indicting Cheney would have been a grand slam, and we didn’t get that, more’s the pity.
But it was a solid double off the wall in the leadoff spot. It was only one swing, but it carried authority. Libby was nailed.
And the investigation continues; if evidence warrants further indictments, that evidence can be presented at any time to a new grand jury, as Fitz said. And he made the point that he isn’t headed back to Chicago. Rove may sleep well for a couple of nights, but I’m putting my money on “It ain’t over.”
The thing about the press conference that upsets me is that Fitzgerald stated that if Judith Miller had not fought in court against her subpoenaed testimony, today’s news conference could have been held one year ago, in October 2004.
That would have been before the presidential election.
In other words, Millers tactics served to get shrub re-elected.
Question to lawyers:
If Libby starts giving testimony now, it doesn’t mean anything, does it? He’s a perjurer out of the mouth of the very man he would be giving testimony to.
How can you rely on the testimony of a man you have just called a perjurer?
With this in view, and if I can try to pretend I’m me for a moment.
Fitzgerald, for whatever reason believes that he already has declawed Cheney. For whatever reason. But he doesn’t have the chimp.
So, he treats Rove with the utmost of kid gloves. He threatens, he bargains, he threatens, he bargains. He’s seen a lot of perps. He knows what they’re like.
He wants the chimp. He doesn’t necessarily want the chimp in the slam, he just wants to be able to issue an indictment that says about the chimp the same thing this indictment said about Cheney:
Cheney gave the name of Valerie Wilson to Libby. That’s in the indictment. Mr. Cheney, why did you do that? Someday he will be asked that question.
Bob: Thanks for the reply…so you can’t just have the comments window open and have the comments appear? You have to refresh each time?
a: I have not been in these threads for 2 weeks. I’e already commented on me’s postings in my comments to UhClem.
At the end of the day, I think a lot of people here, who are pessimistic, are mistaken. But I grant them their judgment. Time will tell.
Of course there are no gaurantees. We all only have our judgment. I can only tell you that all of my judgment in this matter prior to today has not led me to be disappointed in the least. And I don’t think that anyone readin ReddHedd or Jane should be disappointed either. They have been very reality based, it seems to me, otherwise I would not be spending time here.
uhclem- why are you still posting if you are so sure of yourself?
Julie, if you have a PC, simply hit the F5 key. Before you do that, look at the time stamp on the last message posted, then when it reloads you simply scroll up to where you left off.
> But if he had nothing more… He
> absolutely would close up shop and
> go back to Chicago. Absolutely.
Um, because he has a trial to prepare for and conduct in Washington DC? He may not be the main talker, but as he explained in the press conference he will be managing the actual prosecution through the trial.
Cranky
Dear Pachacutec: I can be prone to depression and certainly took the loss in 2000 AND 2004 very hard. And I realize that Fitz is a rare find – an honest broker just doing his job of finding the criminals.
But many are also taking the one glimmer of good news, the indictment, and saying be patient, more will come. Many Americans have been patient for over 5 years. It seems that history will be left to write what happened here and now. And history will have to indict the criminals. For there is to be no justice today.
I sit here thinking of the young people serving in Iraq, without proper protection; I think of the elderly in Florida and Louisiana; I wonder about the schools being taken over by churches; and yet the neocon beat goes on.
I have a prediction: They will push now for extenion of the Patriot Act; to “cut the budget” by elimination even more safe net programs; they will stick it the poor even more so. to prove once and for all they can do what they want. While we peer into the future hoping for one small glimmer of hope.
Gotta say, Fitz impressed the hell out of me, for two reasons: (1) he refused all invitations to say where things stood on anyone besides Libby, and (2) he made it clear, in no uncertain terms, why offenses like perjury are a big deal: lying in one’s testimony makes it difficult or impossible to make a case about the underlying crime.
In a nutshell, this says why perjury and obstruction of justice are a big deal generally – if they weren’t punishable, criminals could lie, and walk, all the time, and we’d only be able to prosecute people who committed crimes in public or on camera.
It also says why the Clinton perjury shouldn’t be regarded as a big deal – there was no underlying crime, just a man who didn’t want (a) his wife and daughter, and (b) the public, to know he was getting his cock sucked by some bimbo.
“Tell me specifically what you would accept as evidence.”
Something more than Raw Story “scoops” and Me’s “insider” claims, for one thing. Something more than “It’ll happen if we believe hard enough”.
At this point, I’m not buying anything other than an official announcement. The “insider” leaks about indictments were far more wrong than right, and I think we’re fools if we continue to jump at every single rumor that’s floated about this thing. After all we heard about these “broad indictments”, about multiple indictees, etc., we end up with one indictment.
An important one, yes, but still… one. Not “Libby, Rove, and two officials not from the White House”, and not a broad conspiracy, not a carefully set-up line of dominos tumbled only when they were all ready to fall.
Essentially, Fitz got one of the capos, and the rest of the family is free to continue to do business as usual. A minor victory, yes. A grand slam… not even close.
I wish it were, but it’s not. And unless I hear something official, I’ve got no reason to believe that there’s more coming.
If you think about it Fritz had to do something today. Our country was frozen, coming off its hinges waiting to see what was happening. The Gov’t was failing to operate. He is definetly the type of man that would do all he could to stop that from happening. Likewise he has to down play anything else he may be looking into for the exact same reasons.
My initial reaction is that I’d never want to play poker with Fitz!
A couple of times I thought his body language in the non-answers was such that there is so much more he would like to say. Other times I got a very different impression.
Couple of questions:
1. Someone mentioned the possibility of Rove making a deal. Who does he have to offer? Bush and Cheney? What/who else can he possibly offer?
2. Anyone else thing that Libby is going to cause some sleepless night in Washington? Going home to a family and thinking about 30 years, legal bills, lost career, etc. should put some fear in more than a couple of people.
tim 1:20 — my post is referencing a previous post above about russert. it looks to me also that libby didn’t think the gig was up until Judy’s june notes came out. but how could he have thought so when he had told such a blatant lie about russert, and he knew russert had testified. that’s why i think things don’t add up on the russert score. either russert’s lying or something very weird is going on there.
pachacutec 1:31 — I’m not disappointed. I agree this is a historic day, and the press conference was an enormous success in proving Fitz to be a man of law and integrity. And I think the country is going to come around. But those exaggerated expectation that you talk about weren’t only on rawstory. They were here. And they are still here. If you look at the predictions on this board — the mainstream predictions, I’m not talking about the edge, but the solid conventional wisdom on this board — over the last two weeks, and you compare them to the New York Times, we get beat by the Times. That’s something to acknowledge and it’s something to consider so that we don’t set our expectations/hopes about future Rove, Cheney, Bolton, Wurmser, et al. indictments too high.
Don’t let it bring you down. It’s only castles burning. Find someone who’s turning. And you will come around. (Neil Young)
Some of you don’t get it.
Fitz’s main point was that Libby is with-holding info that is very, very important.
Go Fitz!
With all of this leaking to Novak that has been going on, can someone just piss on him for me?
Just askin…
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remember..George Ryan was initially identified as Official A in an earlier indictment
http://www.nbc5.com/news/2710256/detail.html
“Federal investigators have linked a politician known as ‘Official A’ to the case,” Kay said. “NBC5 has identified that unnamed official as George Ryan.”
I keep wondering. What about Novak? Did Libby admit to leaking to Novak, and vice-versa? Clearly not, that’s obviously the case, otherwise, why lie about Cooper and Miller.
So we get left with Novak having NO source? Who was Novak’s source? Perhaps it wasn’t anyone inside the administration as Novak claimed it was, or perhaps no chargable offense resulted, but IMHO, that’s the 600# gorrilla sitting in the corner.
IMHO, we’re going to hear about this eventually. IMHO, we’ll eventually have a charge on that issue.
can someone answer a computer question for me about this comment site? (I’m a newbie to computers) Question: In order to read the new posts in the comment section, I have to click it off and then back on and scroll to the bottom, then find where I left off and read the new comments. Is there anyway that the comments can just appear as they are posted? (Sorry for being off topic but it’s hard to follow the conversation this way)
Well… I may see you guys later on tonite, smiling drunk most likely.
It was a _good_ day… 5 counts worth 30 years is more than anybody has stuck this adminstration with in the last 5 years. I am confident there is more coming, or Fitz would pack his bags and go home.
I am going to take care of some chores, then go party x5 :)))
Cya laters :)))))
Pachacutec
i have no yearning freudian or otherwise
i like many millions of people over the world including i hope the majority of americans want – justice
today was not justice
tomorrow does not seem like it will be any better
the people of iraq are being bludgeoned to their deaths, the people of syria & iran have every right to fear for their futures
every part of your executive is tainted if not absolutely corrupted, you have supreme court judges who are not worthy to clean frankfurters fingernails
you have a media that has been sodomised every which way & mostly by their owners who also rule from the roll of dollars
i thought here as in the cuban missile crisis – that there was some sort of fundamental schism in your elites & that this prosecution & the alignement of the cia meant that at least the more vicious & crude criminals would return from where they came – moral bankruptcy & that more ‘enlightened’ members of that elite might take control
if indeed there is any truth to that narrative – they also have lost
there are so many mirrors of 1933-45 germany – especially the jurisprudential angle & that old fascist schmitt would have thought today – a perfect resolution
Back to the talking heads: Tucker Carlson, who I admittedly loathe, asked the question that a lot of regular people will be asking today: why did Libby lie in front of the GJ when it was so obvious that he was going to get caught? He’s a smart guy, right? Did he lie deliberately knowing he would be indicted and take the fall for the Administration? Was the plan that afterwards, Libby would be pardoned and rewarded with a cushy job at a right-wing think tank for his trouble? Did the Administration really think this was going to work . . .
Hey guys! Let me jump in belatedly with one point:
Some folks seem upset that Fitzgerald said the bulk of the investigation is completed. Why?
Here’s how I see it:
The grand jury whose term expired today learned over the past 2 years let’s guess and say 587,346,241 facts.
Now suppose all Fitzgerald needs to indict more people is, let’s say 29 more facts in order to hand up [or is it hand down?] indictments of several more perps.
Under this scenario, he can truthfully say the bulk of the investigation is complete, can’t he?
I know we don’t want to get hopes up for no good reason, but neither should we dash ourselves on the rocks of despair for no good reason.
We simply don’t know yet. And to take it up a notch (and unfortunately to quote a certain war criminal in the DoD) we don’t know what we don’t know.
billmon and josh marshall point out that iipa or espionage could have pretty easily been included in the charges but weren’t. why?
Even if the bulk of the investigation is complete (so far), it doesn’t mean the info gathered has been formed YET into a case beyond a shadow of a doubt against the perpeTRAITORS. Patience is a virtue. The investigation continues. Libby may spill more. Rove is spilling spin still and may get snagged on his own hook. It may be proven that even Cheney had no ‘need to know’ about Joe Wilson.
Who knows? My gut says this is not over by a long shot. But then I believe the world is an illusion anyway, so I’m not hung up on appearances of justice that come one day and fade the next and reappear in another guise a few years later. But it sure would be temporarily fulfilling to see Bush and gang walk the plank blindfolded. Then on to the complicit Dems!
Question: If there were plea deals, would we know about them??
—
Out of context, but Jane and Redd, amazing job today. The graphics are excellent and your posts are just exceptional. We say it a lot because we really, really appreciate you and the work you put in to the site we like to call home.
Thanks.
z
volta – the wording of the indictment speaks to evidence of a larger crime and other officials having been involved. whether that information makes it’s way into an indictment seems to largely depend on if it’s a crime and if it can be proved.
also, if he was done, then why is he continuing to investigate? why not just go home?
UhClem: “I’d love to believe that more is coming, and I know that most people here insist on continuing to believe this, but I can’t pretend that there’s evidence to suggest that this is the case, because there simply is not.”
Ok… Then why would Fitz say in the press conference that he would love to go back to Chicago, but he can’t?
Fitz is not giving you everything, and so you are thinking he has nothing more to give.
But if he had nothing more… He absolutely would close up shop and go back to Chicago. Absolutely.
Why isn’t he? Oh… He just wants to waste time in Washington and spend taxpayers money… ? Why isn’t he closing up?
UhClem: I’m a realist too. And I think your sense of disappointment is based on what were unrealistic expectations coming into today, having placed too much stock in places like Rawstory and other peddlers of the most rosy scenarios. That, in my mind, was misplaced. The odd thing is, I think I’m more optimistic today than you are because I was more cynical than you before I got up this morning.
So who were the two people who leaked to Novak? We know one of them was Rove — but who was the other one?
The indictments of Libby and Noe (in Ohio) and many other Republicans can be seen as battles in the ‘culture war’ or the war of the People against the Establishment. There is no end, but today’s indictments has to be seen as a very nice very public victory. We can only hope for more in the near future.
It’s notable to note that Novak was NOT one of the people Libby leaked to…
There is a lot of information in the indictment that is sort of open-ended. It seems like a lot of people in the WH were aware of Valerie Plame long before the story got in the newspapers.
Me, again… I can only speak for myself, but I’m not buying the carrot-on-the-stick thing anymore. You’re a good writer, and I enjoy your posts for what they are, but they don’t hold nearly the water that you let on. That’s fine, because we’re all just on the outside looking in here anyway.
But with all due respect, let’s not make more of it than there is, eh?
but I can’t pretend that there’s evidence to suggest that this is the case, because there simply is not.
Tell me specifically what you would accept as evidence.
Cranky: I essentially agree, as far as Fitzy’s investigation goes, as I write in my post above, “Truth Is Not Partisan.”
But the reality is this criminal investigation puts the war rationale in play in a way it has not been before, even if no other indictments follow.
Well, I didn’t see Fitz on tv so I’m just going by what’s blogged, but what happened to the ‘big case’ (Robert Bennett) that he was developing? The 22 indictments? And what kind of information could Rove have given him this week that rescued him (Rove)?
I know everyone’s saying that this is just beginning, but the leaks have been very far off in the last 2 weeks. What concrete evidence do we have that suggests Fitz isn’t essentially done?
I thought Fitzgerald was awesome; very focused and obviously a person with a great deal of integrity.
While I’m v. disappointed that Rove wasn’t indicted, I think Fitzgerald’s exactitude and toughness will help keep the spinmeisters at bay. The notion that some how Fitz was an out of control and/or partisan prosecutor, and charged Scooter with itty bitty stuff, won’t fly.
I’d love to believe that there will be more indictments down the pike, but unlike Redd, I’m not optimistic.
It will be interesting to see if Libby plays Let’s Make a Deal with Fitz. I’d be willing to bet that they have a strong case against him. Scooter might not think it would be worth the money and aggravation to go to trial.
For our sake I hope he does, because if he pleas out, the information trail will end here.
On one of the cable networks, someone said that Libby was disadvantaged because he didn’t hire a DC criminal lawyer like Rove did. Libby’s lawyer was not a criminal lawyer and was from Philadelphia. If Libby had a lawyer like Luskin, would he have still been indicted, or at least, would he have fared better?
I’m with remembereringgiap and GrandmaJ – we got next to nothing today. The GOP will continue to spin this as the “criminalization of politics” and an incredibly ignorant and apathetic public will swallow it whole.
If Libby is convicted, Bush will pardon, and that will be that.
The Grinch stole Fitzmas.
.
I’m not downcast, Pach. I’m just being realistic here. I would love to see multiple administration officials go down in flames as much as the rest of you.
But I see nothing to indicate that this is in the offing. I’m not trying to whiz in anyone’s Cheerios just for the giggles of it here… I just honestly don’t see the indications that this is the first of multiple indictments.
I’d love to believe that more is coming, and I know that most people here insist on continuing to believe this, but I can’t pretend that there’s evidence to suggest that this is the case, because there simply is not.
Yes, there are more tantalizing “maybes” on Raw Story as we speak. I’ve been reading them all week, and in the end they ended up being primarily an interesting use of bandwidth for the purpose of creative writing.
If something substantial comes to our attention on this, then fine. But despite it being the height of the season, I can’t just sit and wait for the Great Pumpkin to show up as if he’s actually gonna show up.
I think Libby’s trial will be interesting, but even there I don’t see any new bombshells coming out of that.
The thing to remember about classified information is that it is a twofold requirement. You need to have an access level, e.g., confidential, secret, top secret, and you must have the need to know the information. If a person violates either requirement when passing on information, that person should have their access pulled.
Without regard to whether or not they have broken a chargeable law, they should have their access pulled. It is clear that several officials in this Administration have transmitted information to individuals who were not cleared or didn’t have the need to know the information. The transmitters of that information should have their access pulled, and if access is a requirement for the job, fired.
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> Fitz is making it very clear, without
> being specific because he cannot be
> according to the law, that the
> investigation is ongoing.
I think that Fitzgerald should get a job in the factory where Roarsch Blots are manufactured. He managed to non-answer every question about whether or not the investigation was ongoing with words such that every person who heard them is interpreting them differently. And mostly the way that suits their preconceptions.
Personally, I think his answer about the Iraq war and the dust in the eyes said more than anything else about whether or not there will be more charges: a crime happened. The evidence was deliberately destroyed. I will get as many as I can on obstruction, but don’t pin your political hopes on this investigation cause it ain’t happenen.
Cranky
UhClem and grandmaJ – You guys were looking for the whole bag of goodies in one shot… That would have been lovely. Truly lovely, I agree.
Fitz will give us the entire case, but only once he can make it airtight, and he has extracted _all_ the evidence. You seem to feel perps are going to just skate off into the sunset unmolested, without a care in the world… And you feel let down and depressed…
Sigh… You did not get all you hoped for on Fitzmas.
Betcha this is one of those really, really special times, when Fitzmas comes more than once every 12 months ;)
It’s not over… Fitz has not stuck these perps with all the charges in his bag of goodies… And he is not going home until he has… Period.
Nobody skates with Fitz.
I saw an excellent blog post on how important Libby is to this machine:
http://stevegilliard.blogspot……ucial.html
a – i think his letter to miller makes that case. i.e. july conversations are fine, but nothing about june when i spilled to you.
i think he probably thought he was ok up until the second set of notes were “found” so no reason to go back and implicate himself.
related – does anybody else think his broken foot is the result of something other than kicking something very hard when he realized he was nabbed?
Pat Buchanan has already started the spin. Basically, the Fitz didn’t get anyone on the outing of Plame and it was only Libby – nothing against Rove and that it’s nowhere near as bad as Watergate.
At least the folks on MSNBC are noting it’s not over yet.
One of the things that irks me though is that nobody acknowledges that while the folks in the administration with clearance were allowed to talk amongst themselves, they were legally required to verify whether the info was classified or not prior to repeating it to those without appropriate security clearance (even required to ensure it was OK to confirm it). Spreading the gossip, even with the caveat of “I’m not sure if it’s true” isn’t compliant with the regs for guarding classified info.
Oh, you fools.
Everything is there. Everything. Don’t be so short-sighted. Read between the lines. As immediately gratifying as it would have been to see Rove indicted, there are more substantial matters at hand.
First off, Rove is nothing. I know he’s the Evil Genius, but he’s nothing but a vile pig whose only talent is having no morals, scruples, or ethics whatsoever. He loves his big bad I AM SCARY KARL ROVE image, and the more you focus on him, the less you see that he’s just a pinhead and small potatoes. Why do you think he flipped? His bark is all he has; his bite is nonexistent.
This goes to the black, unvarnished heart of the last fifty years. When this is done, you will be praying that it was merely Watergate.
NYBri: nice post. Nice insight. I agree.
NyBri – I like your optimism, and agree with you. The motive is the forged documents, no?
Doomsayers
Okay, I’m a doctor of psychology.
Some people are more vulnerable, but dint of personality, to depression. Or anxiety. Or Paranoia. Or aggression. We all have our personality styles, with their shadow sides and their blossoming sides.
Me, I’m more vulnerable to depression than any of the other styles. I’m passionate, smart, and also, for those who know me, funny.
I’ve had ups and downs in life. I’ve had money, lost money, and started my own business, which I still have. I’ve been wrong and I’ve been right. I think that life experiences have given me a nice, reality based balance, and I’m known by those who know me as very well grounded. I keep my hopes high and my expectations low.
I just don’t agree with you doomsayers on this one. I was as downcast as anyone (well, not as down as some) over the election results in Novermber, 2004.
But I really, really think you folks who are seeing today’s developments as a bucket of piss are dead wrong. You are wrong. You are not seeing the big picture, because you hoped for bigger fireworks based on your own yearnings.
But all these things are playing out in terms of the group psychology of the nation. And my analysis says that this set of developments today is significant, and is changing the narrative this coutry tells itself about who we are, where we have been and where we need to go. Not for everyone, but for the developing majority.
As I said, I’m not at all infallible, but I really think you are wrong. Please ask yourself whether past disappointments are coloring your perceptions of today’s extraordinary, by historical standards, events.
Um, this is off-topic a bit. But isn’t your use of the photo at the top of this post a massive infringement of copyright? I’m a graphic designer and deal with this issue daily. Corbis is one of the largest image banks in the country. And believe me, you have to PAY to use one of their images. In print or online, with or without their watermark. Maybe you got permission, but if you didn’t, I would yank that right quick.
So… Mr. Fitzgerald will empanel a new Grand Jury, get them up to speed, and wrap up the loose ends. If he finds sufficient evidence of malfeasance or of a conspiracy (RICO, IIPA, Espionage Act, Sedition, OoJ, False Statements, Perjury, etc..), then he’ll hand down those indictments. Is that where we stand? Also, how will the trial of Libby affect the ongoing investigation in terms of release of information and other considerations?
Thanks for all your work on this. You rock.
the presumption that there are indictements for anybody else is neither clear from the indictement of libby nor from this press conference
i’m a sucker for good wins over bad as anybody but nevr before has a country been ruled with such contempt for the law a a local national & international level
in brief, they don’t give a fuck
& the whor media who pulls down its pants or lift up their dresses to be fucked mercilessly by this administration are the losers, along with ourselves – perhaps even fitzgerald himself
Why not try to correct that statement (a la Rove) then when you knew that Tim Russert had testified? He had to have known then that he was made? I mean, did he just give up at that point? All the aspens have turned against me, I am resigned to my fate…? Or is there something else going on there?
The main two things I got from this conference were:
- Fitz is unspinnable. ANYONE, left or whacky right can’t argue we got a raw deal from the umpire here. He is just the kind of person we would all want investigating us or anybody else. Fair, tough, smart and clear. A home run of an introduction to the American public.
- What I heard VERY clearly is that the perjury, OoJ and False statements were NOT what he was looking for . He was (is) on the trail of MOTIVE which would then open the door to why he came. IT would answer the question that would allow him to charge for the actual leak…and the perjury, OoJ and FS charges KEPT him from getting to the truth so he could level the charge on Libby …and others, I believe.
It would also let him get the conspiracy charge…because with the motive, you have consipracy. Without it, you don’t.
This is also a light into his thinking aobut Rove. Has Rove repaired his testimony (ssomething Libby never did)? And, if so, he needs motive to get him as well.
Potential future charges depending on Fitz getting motive nailed down:
- Conspiracy with lots of them involved…
- Rove on Perjury, OoJ and FS.
i have a question.
these other officials wont be prosecuted unless they told someone without classified access at the required level.
It is just a hunch but classified info can be shared with other classified access holders. It is if and when that gets unclassified to someone without classified clearance that malfeasance ensues right?
So I think if Fitz found the only leak, then he found the only guy capable of being jailed right?
very disappointing today – the rats ie Rove, Bush, Chneey escaped justice. What else can I say? the scheme worked to perfection. Fitzgerald probalby had lots of materials to prove conspiracy but not enough to indict more….as we say in sports, sometimes luck is more important than talents
a – i don’t think they expected reporters to get subpoenaed. also, keep in mind that ashcroft was originally in charge of the investigation, so maybe he did expect corroboration from russert or whomever.
Is it possible for Libby to cut a deal before trial and in the process actually tell the truth and in the process stick the shiv in Rove’s back?
OK, my wife reminds me that the second priority was to “protect the American people.”
That comes after serving the people in the White House.
.
Well, I’m a bit more optimistic than that, GrandmaJ. I am certainly disappointed that Karl didn’t get his today. All the wingnuts will be crowing about that, although why that is something to be proud of is beyond me. But I agree that something still is in the works, and could still come out with a better outcome than just Libby on a stick.
Boy, Fitz was great, wasn’t he? Non nonsense to the max.
re “making the trivial charge argument against Fitz will make the claimant look like a moron,” hell yes, and Limbaugh did just that in his “annotated” coverage of the press conference. Limbaugh also sprinkled in a bunch of “what about Clintons”– pretty lame. “On the first day of Fitzmas, ….”
I don’t play poker well myself, or chess, but I can recognize masterful play when I see it. And this game is far from over. This is a prosecutor who won’t rest until the sand is cleared from his eyes — and he’s not about to show the cards in his hand. It’s Libby’s move now, isn’t it?
Good post, ReddHedd.
The Republican water carriers on MSNBC, e.g., Andrea Mitchell, Pat Buchanan, tried to make a big deal about the fact that there was no indictment for the actual leak charge, and therefore, there would be none.
I’m with you, Redd. Fitz knows what the hell he is doing and he is gonna get them.
If a trial is held, where will it be held?
Who would prosecute?
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Another question, leftover from the last thread…
Somebody please explain the Russert thing to me. The lie is just too outrageous. If you are Scooter Libby, do you come into the Grand Jury and say Tim Russert told me about Wilson’s wife, when you know he is not going to corrobate your testimony.
You can expect him to stay silent maybe, you can hope — as Scooter evidently did with JM — that he forgets key details about the conversation. But you can’t expect him to come in and say, yes, I told Scooter Libby about Valerie Wilson, can you?
Bush at his press statement before fleeing to the mountains:
“I got a job to do to serve the people who work in the White House . . . .”
Just keep those priorities straight, Sir!
Serving Karl Rove is Job 1.
(He also said something about the American people, but it wasn’t about serving them.)
.
repost:
Truth Is Not Partisan
But I am.
Still, letÂ’s talk about FitzyÂ’s press conference.
He is a fact machine. HeÂ’s not going to get ahead of the facts. And he wonÂ’t settle for less than the facts.
The camera loves Fitzy. Not in a Brad Pitt way. But in a “I’m not a bullshitter” way.
From a partisan perspective, Fitzy is perfect for us. He will get to the truth. He will be credible. He will get these issues discussed all across the country. He sees that crimes have been committed. He is not done with his investigation. And when he takes aim at you, he does not miss. If I were a continuing “person of interest” in this investigation, I would be eliminating all fiber from my diet because my shit is already brick solid.
What an amazing press conference. When was the last time you saw a press conference out of DC that you felt was giving you the truth? He took so many questions. He was impressive and likable. He has an unworldly command of both the trees (the details) and the forest (the big picture and the narrative of human action that animates it). He has a sense of humor.
That he is so clearly non-partisan helps the partisan cause. Even if he does not prosecute all the things we imagine happened, and if he does not prosecute all the people we are convinced should rot in jail, he opens that whole cabal to examination. The civil case to come by the Wilsons will get everything else into the political bloodstream. This guy, by not being one of us on the left, is perfect for us.
Those are my initial thoughts.
It has been fun to track the feebleness of the Republican response. Quite evidently, (a) they have no good defense and (b) there is no one providing the usual Rovian talking points to the right wing echo chamber.
Check out the Corner blog at the National Review (http://corner.nationalreview.com). Early in the day, their response to the catastrophy was to comment on how little attendion Cindy Sheehan was getting lately (of course the answer is that the Bush admin implosion itself has been hogging attention as the main event in the three ring circus).
Also they tried to compare today’s indictments with the trivial charges against Espy and Cisneros in the Clinton admin.
Feeble feeble talking points.
For the lawyers: If there were sealed indictments at this point would we know?
My brother was just saying that on the phone. There may be an indictment sitting with Rove’s name on it that hasn’t been handed down. Luskin has managed to stay the hand of justice by offering potentially juicy testimony from Rove. Word has it that Luskin has been all over the building today.
I align myself with “remembereringgiap” (had to copy that spelling veeeery carefully), I just don’t see the next step here. Sure he will squeeze Libby some more, and there will be a trial, and Bush will pardon him. Game over. bush doesn’t care what we think about him anymore. He will sign that pardon with glee knowing that just one guy took the heat and the rest all went free.
Free to complete their task of dismantling freedom and democracy. It is now obvious to me at least that getting my hopes up for a brighter future is only giving me ulcers. I refuse to get my hopes up anymore.
I watched every single minute of that press conference — I saw a resolute and honest man who took what he could get after 2 years. Serious crime? Yes. Did he put a bump in the road for the neocons – no way.
Bush is talking now. “Each citizen is presumed innocent and has a right to due process.” Hmm. Tell that to Jose Padilla.
His remarks were sure short.
The gist: ‘Scooter served well. He’s presumed innocent. Gonna do the people’s bidness, and so are the people in the WH. Focused on the people’s bidness. Gonna nominate somebody to the Supreme Court real soon. Thank yew.’ No response to the shouted questions about Rove and whatnot. He sounded especially stupid after just listening to Fitzgerald. It was really underwhelming, even for Bush.
I had a question on a thread last week that never got cleared up.
For the lawyers: If there were sealed indictments at this point would we know?
Reddhedd — My 12:59 post was for Jane. Should have specified. Sorry.
That’s absolutely correct. And none of the indictment today precludes further indictments in the future. I expect them to squeeze Scooter Libby as much as they can — along with other administration people that they think may be involved and have been holding back.
Couple of questions. Legal stuff.
When and if Libby goes to trial they will need to prove a motive to prove perjury. Is that correct? If his motive is covering up a conspiracy can charges be brought on a conspiracy? Or would that need to go back to a Grand jury?
And, and this is probably an oversimplification but when does a few government officials getting together to discuss classified materials turn into conspiracy. More specifically, how can that be proven? You’d almost have to ahve someone roll over right? I know, probably a stupid question.
Good post, Redd.
As some talking head said, the use of the term “Official A” is something you would do not to prejudice an investigation into someone you were still looking into.
Wasabi — I don’t know. Have been monitoring the DOJ website to see if there were pending motions. It may have been scheduling issues. It may have been regarding sealing some of the record for national security matters. I just don’t know yet. Will certainly let everyone know when I know something.
i think that is wishful thinking & yes i’ve read the indictement
these criminals like their victory & we are becoming experts of loss
That Talking Point Won’t Fly.
Any thoughts on the significance of the “motions” relating to the handing up of the indictment?