Nothing on NPR W 8pm EST

I teach “Critical Thinking” part time …. [rest of comment omitted]

Welcome to the United States of Alabama.

Question about sealed indictments – if sealed indictments are handed down, how much will we know about them? Will we know who and what they are being charged with, without any details, or maybe just how many indictments, or nothing at all?

Remember that only Connie Francis song “Who’s Sorry Now”……… I hope they play it in the background loudly when the indictments are read/announced. I have my hanky and crying towel all ready…..let’s roll! And I need to contact Pat and make sure he has a prayer ready for national TV to help bolster the Bushco team………

Can you say WILMA!

Will the MSM respond lead-in by taking us yet again back to Aruba and Natalie Holloway’s Mom?

—

crap…just got home and missed all the fun…but only 1-5 indictments? crap…

Drudge now says that ABC called the White House and asked for confirmation for a story that they had double sourced that Libby had been indicted- the White House refused comment.

Drudge claims that it was a bluff and that ABC decided not to go with the story- at least not on the east coast.

” We need to have at least 60% functional literacy in order to regain a viable democracy- a goal we are apparently a long ways from. – rwcole”

I teach “Critical Thinking” part time on & off at my U. ~2/3 to 3/4 of my students need to re-take high school. They can’t read analytically, hate to (infotainment culture creatures that they are), but, of course, ALL expect at least a “B” just for showing up. I’ve been taken to my Sups twice over C- grades (that probably should have been “F”).

Our U admits to roughly 50% of incoming freshmen being remanded to Remedial.

Most of what we label “Critical Thinking” where I teach is really just high school level English Comprehension 101. They flock to this course (we schedule about 35 sections a semester) because it gets ‘em partly out of a math requirement because of the “logic” piece.

Pretty scary. These kids all have strong opinions, but most don’t like to have them challenged for structure and evidentiary adequacy. Those are Future Bush Republicans, you can just see it coming.

Now you got these fundie cretins wanting to further diss science and rationalism in the high schools with the pathetic “Intelligent Design” BS.

I think I need a drink.

—

Semblance- yes it’s gone- now that’s one of the shortest news cycles in the history of the world!

If an indictment is “sealed” is everything sealed? Or can a prosecutor state the name and/or crime that the individual is charged with?

Also, does anyone know the information given in standard DOJ target letters. Are the targets informed of what crimes they are charged with or are they simply informed that they are facing serious legal jeopardy?

That rawstory headline is now gone. :(

Rawstory:

REPORT: LIBBY INDICTED…

Raw Story reporting

LIBBY INDICTED

No sourcing yet

Time to open the champagne?

froggermarch:

Thank you. Seems so simple, I guess, but it’s one of those bones I just haven’t been able to let go of.

FBI interviewing.

More likely- this is the White House trying to collect some information to the effect that people knew about Plame before the leak.

Fitzy would have no reason to order this.

It will be used in the defense of the perps.

The business about sealed indictments is ambiguous. Indictments are always sealed until the judge approves them and the defendants are apprehended. BUT they could remain sealed for cause, e.g., a new grand jury. Fitz has reached the ultimate end of this grand jury. He got one extension, and the graand jury served for its maximum 18 months. So, if there is further investigation to be done — a real possibility — Fitz might not let us see his presents yet. There’s a bit more on this at my site.

Investigators are talking to Wilson’s neighbors

Could this be one final request from the Grand Jurors themselves, as the decide who to indict?
 

BettyBoop,

I would imagine that Powell and W could have faxed the memo from AF1 to Cheney and in that sense have “shown” them. AF1’s techno gear is all the bomb I hear. That would also tell us this was not a casual circulation. As if.

There are countries where prosecutors (and judges and jury members and journalists) are gunned down in the streets.

outright assassination of troublesome political people is too jolting for the public (mlk, jfk, rfk); the preferred and refined method is character assassination — no blood, but the same result of marginalizing a person — with the added benefit of demeaning the issue that person represented.

Investigators are talking to Wilson’s neighbors, asking if they knew Plame worked for the CIA.

Heard this on 2 shows. Abrams had a quote up on the screen from a neighbor saying he’d been interviewed and that he didn’t know Plame was CIA.

Some people have raised the issue as to whether outing of Plame resulted in any CIA agent deaths.

From Wayne Madson report July 2nd 2005

CIA sources report that at least one anonymous star placed on the CIA’s Wall of Honor at its Langley, Virginia headquarters is a clandestine agent who was executed in a hostile foreign nation as a direct result of the White House leak.

We need to have at least 60% functional literacy in order to regain a viable democracy- a goal we are apparently a long ways from.

I agree with EPU — There are countries where prosecutors (and judges and jury members and journalists) are gunned down in the streets.

Thank God we ain’t there right now. We’ve been tilting too far into fascism, but indictments announced indicate that we haven’t hit the utter bottom of the fascism cliff.

That’s a lousy standard, but I think most of us here have had very, very dark worries for some time.

Celebration is warranted, but commitment to the further “long hard slog” to regain our democracy is absolutely necessary.

CBS reporting that Fitzy will spill the beans wednesday.

Paracutec – I stand by that Fitzmas (fingers crossed) means the system works, and agree that it is only the beginning, and we cannot be complacent. You have to start someplace, and if it is a court of law, the more the better, if not sadder.

Hello Fitzpeople

obsessed:

No. Cheney was not of AF1 so Powell couldn’t have SHOWN him the memo. But Fitz did subpeona the phone records from AF1. Powell could have shown them to Chimp and he could have called Cheney and Rove and Chimp could have given them to Ari. I’ve always thought that is what occurred. Is there anything that blows this theory out of the water? Anyone?

Re: anger.

I agree. I’ve been fueled by anger at the right by years. It’s covered by my habitual use of humor, most of the time, but also evident in my persistence and engagement. But I also feel more than one thing at a time. Because of my love of what this country should stand for, I’m also sad.

Re: Fitzmas means the “system works”

I’m sorry, but it doesn’t. Fitzmas might be the beginning. But there’s a long hard fight to rebuild our civil polity after that. Did Iran Contra prove the system “worked?” Don’t get complacent after Fitzmas day. The day itself will slove nothing.

“Its seems likely that we will have confirmation of systemic corruption not only of government, but of our institutions of democracy”

Pachacutec, take heart. I’ve been fearful for years that our nation was nearing a tipping point toward a kind of cultural and political fascism, from which it would not return (as opposed to being at the rightward end of a pendulum swing.) How could these Rovean ruses keep working and working? How could we possibly have reached a point where public officials are debating *when* torture is okay? How could our culture have turned so Orwellian?

I no longer feel this way. I have strong hope that honesty and integrity will prevail, that the pendulum will swing back toward the center, and that this is the beginning.

And beyond pendulum swings, sometimes progressive political movement even permanently alters the fabric of our society. Rosa Parks helped initiate a movement which killed Jim Crow, and changed the face of this nation.

Fitzmas won’t fix everything, not even most things. But it will be the beginning of the end of the (as Molly Ivins put it) Bushwhacking of America.

This is good.

Seems to me that whether he was “under oath” in tetimony to GJ doesn’t matter because isn’t Cheney, like Bus, already completely “under” a far larger oath, to support and defend the constitution as the Veep? Maybe he didn’t promise not to lie, but he certainly promised not to squander our freedom, and it sounds like he’s done just that!

Everything we are seeing certainly suggests intense plea bargaining going on on many fronts.

Fitzy may have his hands full dealing with all of them.

Fitzy is taking full advantage of the “deadline” and doesn’t want to do anything to break the “last chance spell”- he also doesn’t want to do anything (like announce indictments) that signals that his mind is made up- so he is content with status quo for a while.

The countless leaks are doubtlessly coming from the various attorneys- each trying to gain some advantage for their particular client in the dog eat dog of the public media wars.

Probably best not to take much of it too seriously right now.

I am afraid that we are in for at least a short delay.

Makes sense that Fitzy is already carrying some sealed indictments in his pocket to use as trade bait.

Pacifica – I think Fitzmas has the chance to be more than a wonder holiday for us here, but also a world class disinfectant. What better message to send to the world to rehabilitate the US’s reputation then that the scoundrels have been found out and will (fingers crossed) have to pay for the crime. That we and our system of government won’t tolerate it. Pie in the sky? Perhaps. But where else could you start – with the next administration saying oops, sorry about the invasion, heh heh, won’t happen next time. I think Fitzmas (fingers still crossed) gives us the the chance to begin regaining our credibility overseas, not losing it. Of course, I could be wrong.

CBS NEWS says Fitz talks tomorrow, issues indictments — CBS speculates
about “Mr. X”, etc.

Yeah. It IS simple, Jane. Bush came into office wanting obsessively to invade Iraq, and he and his handlers did everything they had to to make that happen, legal and illegal.

—

sealed indictments: see Otis’s posts in the previous thread.

It seems that a lot of new information may be coming into this grand jury during its last moments. For those of us who donÂ’t know how this system works would someone please explain/review what the next steps might look like?

Can a grand jury be extended or does a new one have to be empanelled? Who decides whether Fitzpatrick can extend this or empanel a new grand jury? Is there added risk of a shut-down scenario if an attempt to extend the time line is made? If there is no new grand jury empanelled could additional indictments/charges be brought as new information or plea bargains occur? If not how can plea bargain negotiations effectively continue?

obsessed -

Thanks. Who has time to keep up with all this stuff flying around?

I have to say, a lot of critics could be in for some major letdowns (and credibility evisceration) if they’re being played in all this.

Hard to know what to believe anymore.

—

Question about sealed indictments – if sealed indictments are handed down, how much will we know about them? Will we know who and what they are being charged with, without any details, or maybe just how many indictments, or nothing at all?

Wow, Dan Abrams just did a REALLY GOOD JOB of laying out the web of who-told-who in Plamegate, replete with visual aids.

As emptywheel has noted, one of the things that is going to be important is making this whole thing simple so people don’t shake their head in confusion like Iran Contra and change the channel.

Will someone explain sealed indictments for me? When or do they ever become public?

It’s Beginning To Look A Lot Like Fitzmas

From http://www.dailykos.com/hotlis…..laystory//

It’s beginning to look a lot like Fitzmas
Ev’rywhere you go;
Take a look in the MSM, critical once again
And calling for Dick Cheney’s head to roll.
It’s beginning to look a lot like Fitzmas,
Rumors on every blog,
But the prettiest sight to see is the frog march that will be
Out the White House door.

Indictments for treason and juries that reason
Is the wish of Barney and Ben;
Flacks that will talk and a public perp walk
Is the hope of Janice and Jen;
And Bush and Rove can’t wait until Al Qaeda bombs again.

It’s beginning to look a lot like Fitzmas
Ev’rywhere you go;
There’s a Grand Jury in Washington, one in Texas as well,
The sturdy kind that doesn’t mind the press.
It’s beginning to look a lot like Fitzmas;
Soon the chips will fall,
And the thing that will make them stick is the witnesses who flipped
In the jury hall.

For a reminder about the tune, check here: http://my.homewithgod.com/heav…..klike.html

-

dl & BobbyG: this is the same bogus report from a few days back. CHENEY WAS NOT ON AF1 — any time you see anything about Powell showing the memo to Cheney, that’s the red flag that it’s a hoax.

I share Pachacutec’s fears. I was in London on business during the ‘04 election. News throughout the world (except in the US of course) questioned whether the re-election of Bush would undermine confidence in American leadership and lead to the collapse of the US dollar. That didn’t happen, but it shows the precariousness of our position. While indictments may prove to us that the democratic system works, I am not sure that it will do anything to shore up the world’s confidence in us. I am perched with Pachacutec on the precipice and I am afraid of heights.

dl -

Wow. Interesting. Huge, if true.

—

Oops, left out some detail here: Bill Schneider announced the poll results on CNN, and I assume the place to find them is CNN’s website.

Shuster: “A number of lawyers believe that the information about Cheney was part of the secret information which the prosecutor presented to the court over a year ago that convinced one judge to talk about the gravity of the case.”

So now the rollercoaster goes back up on Cheney? I thought he was toast last night, only to wake up with everything spun all around.

What I can’t understand is that regardless of the legal implications, it’s now proven that Cheney & Bush have known all about this since before the election and covered it up. WHERE IS THE OUTRAGE?

I want to contradict an opinion expressed by an “anonymous” a couple of threads down. [I’m desperately trying to catch up with all this bloggy goodness, and all the tasty detail-morsels…]

Anonymous claimed that obstruction, and or/ perjury or false statement charges would not mean much, if anything, to the American people.

Response: bull pucky. That worm from AEI, Bill Schneider, has announced today for the severalth time that there are consistent poll results showing that a MAJORITY of Americans believe that what underlies this leaky mess of a case is CRIMINAL BEHAVIOR on the part of the White House.

A majority believe that already. Think about that. That’s without having had every single juicy detail, and every twist and turn thrust under their noses as happened in the egregious Ken Starr media circus.

The American people may not understand all the ins and outs or the ramifications of what’s happened, but they have good instincts.

[Sorry to say I don’t remember the exact poll numbers, but I’m sure it’s available somewhere, but I’m not motivated to go dig it up while I’m still desperately playing catch-up with today’s tidbits of info.]

Lots of stuff flyin right now- including “Cheney has been indicted and will resign this weekend”.

Some are saying that Fitz might have gotten sealed indictments because he’s still plea bargaining and plans on another Grand Jury- but wants to get what he can out of this one before it’s term expires.

Who the hell knws?

what about this wild rumor: http://www.alternet.org/bloggers/frel/27082/

I just heard Jim VanDeHei (sp?) on tweety bird’s show state that he found out that the FBI was in Wilson’s neighborhood last night asking if any neighbors knew the status of Wilson’s wife prior to Novak’s column.

So are they looking for evidence to exonerate the leakers, or gathering evidence to support a trial?

Buchanan’s question about why they would
cover up something that was just hardball.
Obviously, It was more than just “hardball”- it was a crime.

-

Only slightly OT, a reminder to maintain motivation for why we are awaiting indictments.

The 2000 number of dead is actually misleading, as it counts only those soldiers who have died in action and not those who were critically wounded and later died of their injuries. These numbers are not counted by the US (link, anyone) That number represents even more grieving families and parentless children, and they need to be remembered in our prayers, thoughts and rituals. I consider firedoglake many things, but it also fulfills that role for me.

Namaste

Taegan Goddard at Political Wire says:

a former high level Bush administration official told Political Wire that “people are turning on each other” at the White House. Lawrence Wilkerson is likely just the first to come out publicly against the administration.
 

Hardball is over. Chris is having trouble keeping this thing going. Pathetic performance- doesn’t look as if he spent an hour preparing.

If we don’t get indictments soon- he’s going to be a comic spit factory howling at the moon.

Pachutec – Understandable thoughts. But Fitzmas is a happy time b/c it shows the system works – that the hubristic assholes who tried to turn this Country into an oligarchic plutocratic one party cult of personality state have been (or soon will be, fingers crossed) exposed for the lying hypocritcal scum that they are. That is cause for joy – in the sense these republicans are (politically) dead, long live the United States as a democracy. It is not per se about the individuals, but the survival of the democratic system itself. Luckily, the system won (as it did in Watergate). IMHO

Not related. Can we stop calling them arrogant. They are hubristic. Arrogance is unwarranted pride, hubris is unwaranted arrogance. Language is important, and they went past false pride a long time ago.

Pachacutec -

I am ANGRY. Y’know what make ME sick? Stuff like THIS:

http://www.bgladd.com/Bush_Mal….._child.jpg

Schadenfreude is a minor component. Rage at the breathtaking criminal arrogance of this administration is the biggie for me.

—

Hard Ball just now
Can’t spell her name
If Cheney “omitted” that he told Libby about Plame, he is still inserious trouble although not under oath

ReddHedd.. Is it your feeling or assessment that Fitz may now have something more substantive that would compel him to pursue Cheney further?

I hope major shit comes down very soon, so the Bushies don’t have time to mount a Wag-the-Syria diversion, or some other Code Brown foggery.

—

Jane,

Yes, that’s clear. How can Buchanan be such an idiot?

I know, I know.

I can’t believe I wrote that sentence either.

Handing over the notes first then contradicting them after the fact could be spin. It seems to fit with the “they got tripped up” defense to the public.

An Unhappy Fitzmas

Okay so to the extent that:

* we see justice done – or at least, begun,

* we feel vindicated by the Justice system after years or sneers, losses, indignities and allegations of treason for dissent from the right

* we feel the sweet thrill of revenge, then. . .

Fitzmas is for us a “happy” occasion, and even good for the country. We need to reckon with ourselves as a nation.

But on the other hand, Fitzmas is or will be a tragedy. Its seems likely that we will have confirmation of systemic corruption not only of government, but of our institutions of democracy. These problems will not be healed by Fitzmas. They will only just begin to be acknowledged. And that’s not, by any stretch of the imagination, a happy occasion.

I’m as human and prone to schadenfreude as anyone. But now that I feel we are perched together on the precipice, I don’t feel very joyful.

I feel sick.

Here comes the pain. It all happens tomorrow. By Thursday, it’ll be old news (to us)

judges and lawyers may ‘quibble’ over false statements vs perjury.
look at the issue politically: most Americans do not like politicians LYING over important matters.
people understood why a married man like The Big Dog would lie about getting some on the side. Lying about CIA agents is considered pretty nasty by most folk…

Pat Buchanan is a dottard. The idea that Libby turned over the notes and then lied in contradiction of them is absurd. I seriously doubt Scooter boy turned over the notes until Fitzgerald put the screws to him.

One other thought on the sealed indictment angle. It is also possible that Fitz could get those indictments that he has nailed down at this point, seal them to keep the potential perps on hold for plea negotiations or otherwise, and empanel an entirely new grand jury for further investigation if there is late-discovered evidence that needs vetting. My understanding is that this would be permissible under the DOJ guidelines, from talking with a friend who used to be an AUSA. Would certainly be an intriguing twist, wouldn’t it? (Okay, and my brain would explode from having to wait…)

Patrick Fitzgerald’s Diary

“4. A press conference is being scheduled for Thursday.”

Bingo! Something tells me they’re not going to be discussing Chicago’s sweep of the Astros.

Go, Fitz, Go!
.

I’m watching Hardball too. I realize Pat Buchanon can’t hear me on Hardball, but what if Steve Hadley was part of the plot to produce/procure the forged documents, which seems to be the case via TPM. We need interactive TV. Now Damnit

P.S. FWIW, I once again agree with the estimable Jeralyn of TalkLeft. I don’t think it matters much that the Big Dick wasn’t under oath. Its still a crime to lie under these circumstances, and in some ways, “obstruction” has a better PR ring to it for me. Its seems less like a “personal” crime like perjury, and more like a calculated Nixonian attempt to hijack democracy.

Oops. Wait a minute. . . it WAS!

Shuster on Hardball:

“A number of lawyers believe that the information about Cheney was part of the secret information which the prosecutor presented to the court over a year ago that convinced one judge to talk about the gravity of the case.”
-

On Thursday I’ll be having a certain John Lennon melody in my head.

“And so this is Fitmas…”

I just heard Jim VanDeHei (sp?) on tweety bird’s show state that he found out that the FBI was in Wilson’s neighborhood last night asking if any neighbors knew the status of Wilson’s wife prior to Novak’s column.
Interesting… Would this indicate a possible extension of the GJ to allow more info gathering by investigators?

More detail on sealed inidictments at end of thread below. Gotta go now.

We also hear that more is going to emerge on the Cheney front…

Should I stay up late tonight? :)

I don’t wish to go off topic here, but I heard something some of you will get a kick out of. “The ‘Parsons’ of Neocon talk radio’”, (as in Orwell’s 1984) Sean Hannity was squalling about one of his assistants bringing material culled from “Liberal and Democrat websites”. He’s upset over the term “Merry Fitzmas”. LOL!

Hey “Sweet Baby James”, if you read this tell your melonheaded boss that there are some of us who are Goldwater Conservatives that don’t give a damn whether it is “(Neo)Conservatives and Republicans” (said with Limbaughian reverence) or “Liberals and Democrats”; (said with a Hannity sneer) if it involves lying, corruption and treason, we want them nailed. This isn’t a partisan issue despite the efforts of some to do so for some cheap political gain. This is an American issue.

Here’s hoping they go down hard.

sealed indictments… does that mean that the investigation moves forward with another GJ convening?